Pipe vs Dom (yes again)

[Mudslug]

I have been watching the Mudlite rollover thread with great interest and now that I have seen the pictures I wonder if the cage would have tweaked as much as it did if it was DOM (I am pretty sure he runs S40), or if the movement was a design issue within the cage itself.

Yes the roll over was huge and the cage did its job perfectly and we know this because John is walking around breathing but this is a perfect time to improve all our designs (in your head or on your rig) by using what we can learn from John's boo boo.

From the pic's it looks like the pass side of his (what I would loosly call his) B pillar folded back and tweaked the runners back to his A bar (behind his head). With this being said does this mean that a proper prostreet style one piece B pillar that runs to the A pillar is a better design? or does it just mean Mudlite took a nasty tumble and any cage would have tweaked? Or is it the material used in the cage that is the issue? DOM over Pipe....

Just a discussion topic, not bashing anyone...

[MuddMachine]

does it just mean Mudlite took a nasty tumble and any cage would have tweaked?

That would be my geuss.

[Mudslug]

Hmm do you think the Pro street style B pillar would be stronger then?

Anyone can jump in here eh, we want to make the sport safer for everyone..

[lil beast]

I dont think it would have bent as much as it did if it had some triagled peices going from the outside of the "b" to the inside of the "a" reguardless of what was used.

My 0.02

[MuddMachine]

Keep in mind it's a 4000lbs + vehicle that got flopped on it's lid. What if it didnt bend ? Somethings gotta give, no ?

[Mudslug]

No, not to that extent anyway. That's where the belts design come into play, there is actually a wee bit of give there.

Either way the tweaked part should be replaced and the rest of the cage should get a good going over to ensure its all ok.

[MuddMachine]

MudLite hopw about your feedback here since you experienced it first hand :yike

[someguy]

I tend to think of a cage as a one use item. For 150-200 worth of tube you get to life for a while longer and try and improve on the design. Anything harder than a nice soft flop onto the side, like a trench "flop" where the truck only "falls" a two or three feet, and mine gets replaced. If you design it do it's job it should deform, but in a predictable manner. I can't really get into the pipe vs. tube argument as I've only used tube, that being said I've looked at the pics and if he came out of an endo like that with nothing bigger than a belt bruise or two then the cage gets a pass, in my books. I think that the whole pipe vs. tube thing has been argued to death but IMO pipe works well in slow speed tumbles (90% of offroad rolls).

[lil beast]

:urock: Its about time that a tube user spoke up about pipe and gave it a good word. I think if it is built right it will work. If you want to get into the weight factor then its a different story. :beer:

[zc911]

DOM is my choice

http://www.davesport.com/cgi-bin/davesport/specs.html?id=qk4WiVIy

Also the way i ahve seen alot of truck cages makes me cringe. I know most are slow speed tip overs, but what happens when the cage bends in so far that you crack the old melon off it. That would HURT, acutally it wouldn;t cause you would probably be onconsious lol

Ther eis my idea of a strong cage (sorry about the paint skills :D
every color represents wehre things should be one piece

[zc911]

this might give a better idea of what needs to be once piece

[Mudslug]

Lil beast i am suprised you think that what someguy said about pipe is a goood word. I know I would not risk my life to a product that "works well" for 90% of the time....JMO

Hmm I see everyone elses point...I would like Mudlite to jump in here to hear his input though...

[TheSarg]

On a heep owners budget sure Dom, but im usin pipe, why not? if i roll & tumble ill just cut the affected pieces out & replace it with my princess auto bender and a $5 piece of pipe. What i do feel is that the design of the cage is very very important, u cant just throw some peices on and call it a cage, each part should accent the others and have good absorbtion.


Cya @ Suzican

[MuddMachine]

You guys are too funny. All this shit about how safe pipe is and NO NO NO we cant use pipe , or, more triangulation then at the same time there's a bunch of steering arms being cut and welded with a fawkin mig machine. Get your priorities straight. I say save your money and use pipe, whatever money you save, buy some proper steering shit with it. There ! Now you'll be safe.

:bang:

[zc911]

i would just liek to point out i have a proper steering system :boot:

[Mud Lite]

Sorry, I must have missed this thread.

I don't care what material you use. If you have a bend in it and it is not triangualted it will bend more. My cage took a good hard hit on the passenger corner and it survived. It didn't fracture as most people say it will as pipe is more brital than tube. it bent at the dash. There is a point were too much triangualtion starts to become a problem. When it starts contacting body parts, or starts to interfeer with day to day use.

I think it held up and I will be replacing the front section over the winter. Now that it doesn't have a windshield, it will allow me to keep things straighter in that area, and with no doors, I will be able to bow the lower braces out for more leg room. ( I am 6'-0")

material failure? No. Material held up

Workmanship? No . All welds held up.

Design Weakness? No. Only compressed 1 1/2" in a non life threatening area.

Limitations of the space ? yes. No room at the palyground for more monkey bars.

How could this have been prevented? Triangualtion through the door area. ( this starts to hinder day to day operation of the vehicle. I don't want to have to crawl into , or fold myself into my truck. You are usually in and out of your truck 100 times in any given trail.

I agree with replace what is broken. Save your money as long as the design is right. And go buy some safe steering shiat :boot: Thanks Tone.

[lil beast]

You guys are too funny. All this shit about how safe pipe is and NO NO NO we cant use pipe , or, more triangulation then at the same time there's a bunch of steering arms being cut and welded with a fawkin mig machine. Get your priorities straight. I say save your money and use pipe, whatever money you save, buy some proper steering shit with it. There ! Now you'll be safe.

:bang:

Turns out BOTH welded steering arms and pipe have proven themselves on the trails. If it works, it works. What is wrong with welding with a mig? Have a look at the stock drag link on a sami. Is there a weld in there? Yes, and it was proprably done with a mig. :argue:

Mudslug, I know that tube is what is used in race cars and it is what you use. Have you ever used pipe for a roll cage? I was looking for an unbiased opinion from from someone who has used tube but also see's that pipe is plenty strong for our useage.

Why is that surprising?

[gobig]

i think everyone is right,or on the right track!!!!

i don't have a cage, and i think i should start looking at getting one in before it's too late.........i have seen the pics from all who had fun this passed long week end, and i am thinking i would be safer with any old cage,pipe or tube,then none at all.
i would also like to say that this thread is very educational, i am learning many different point of views here,and that is a good thing!!!!!

[MuddMachine]

Turns out BOTH welded steering arms and pipe have proven themselves on the trails. If it works, it works. What is wrong with welding with a mig? Have a look at the stock drag link on a sami. Is there a weld in there? Yes, and it was proprably done with a mig. :argue:
Why is that surprising?

The weld on a drag link only sees static load, not shearing load. And mig sucks. There is plenty wrong with a mig when you need strength so let's not even go there. Ask Fullload bout the stick welded brackets he had to beat off cuz i stick welded them, then do the same with a mig and see how easy they come off. For a cage mig would be fine , why ? Because of the structure itself. There is no shear load in a cage. The only downfall to the pipe for a cage is extra weight. Like I said, everyones so concerned bout a cage, too many people miss the real important stuff.

:po:

[lil beast]

The weld on a drag link only sees static load, not shearing load. And mig sucks. Like I said, everyones so concerned bout a cage, too many people miss the real important stuff.

:po:

The way Fullload and I made the steering arms is not a concern to us as the entire arm is still there. The shearing would have to come from the bolts not the welds. So a cage IS "the real important stuff" right now. :bang:

Mudslug, where are your stats from? You say the the product fails 10% of the time?

[Mudslug]

I pulled it as a point from Someguys post "I think that the whole pipe vs. tube thing has been argued to death but IMO pipe works well in slow speed tumbles (90% of offroad rolls)."

Guys this was to be a discussion (read the first post) so don't get your panties in a bunch.

Personally I would not go with pipe for my own reasons, the original question was do we think Mudlites cage would have moved as it did if it was tube. I never said the pipe didn't do its job, we know it worked because Mudlite is doing the whole walking, talking and breathing thing. So from Mudlites post we see the "tweak" was caused by a few factors design, type of roll and what was rolled onto.

I would love to be able to talk with someone who had a similar cage but made with tube that had a similar roll...hmmm what else.

Welding, yep MIG is not the strongest welding process and if I could I would TIG or stick my work but I can't......holy fawk did I just agree with Mudd?? I need a coffee. :yike

[Mud Lite]

In my case I think I have the best of both worlds. The main point of using PIPE over TUBE is cost. How many people need to buy a 1000.00 tube bender? How many people are willing to lend them out? How much room is requireed to sping TUBE? All these factors came in when I was building a cage in a one car garage.

The cage itself is 1/3 PIPE, 1/3 TUBE and 1/3 Stock Sami roll bars.

The front hoop is pipe ( 90degree bends with a pipe bender)
The horizontal spreaders are Tube ( 10degree bends or less with pipe bender)
the rear pilar and horizontal tie ins are stock.

As far as weight goes. Pipe is 1/3 of a pound hevier per foot for equal sized material. So what does this mean? in the average 100' cage Pipe would be 33 lb's of extra weight. Not a heck of a lot if you ask me. How much more weight is in my cage over full Tube with aprox 60 of pipe? 20 lb's :boot:

I do agree with Gobig. I would rather see everyone with a pipe cage rather than NO cage. Zuk guys are cheap, broke, up to my eye balls in debt wheelers that are not a part of the BOB crowd that the J33P owners usually fall into. We tend to use duct tape more than we should and vice grips ( or come along) all of a suddend become a perminent fix for a broken mount. I would love to see all zuk guys with proper protection and safe steering linkages. But first I would love to see all those squeaky U-joints replaced before you get to SuziCan :beer:

[Mudslug]

Hmm the set up area for tube is a wee bit bigger then pipe but either way your right, something is better then nothing. The only thing I would hate to see is what happened to that poor bastard at Mosport a wee while back, the cage failed and the door bar broke into the safety zone and ended up going in under his left arm and coming out through the centre of his back...

[zc911]

Hmm the set up area for tube is a wee bit bigger then pipe but either way your right, something is better then nothing. The only thing I would hate to see is what happened to that poor bastard at Mosport a wee while back, the cage failed and the door bar broke into the safety zone and ended up going in under his left arm and coming out through the centre of his back...


exactly. The only thing is most of the time it would be a slow speed roll, and the only time i could see that happening is a long roll down a hill.

[MuddMachine]

Mudslug Im not clear on the point your trying to make. Here's my take on this:

1. When MOST vehicles with a cage have a collision or an impact, you cut off whats bent and replace it.

2. Like I said, for 4,000 lbs doin an endo, I think it worked just fine.

3. Do you expect a cage to have no give at all ?

Mudslug you agreed with me cuz youve seen shit break that was mig welded. And its a fact that stick is the bones.

Beast, shear factor is at the studs/bolts AND the welds right now. If the weld goes, so do the studs and vice versa. It's all relevant but back on topic we go.

[Mudslug]

Ok,

1. Uh ya, I said that in my original post...
2. I never said it didn't, I believe I said it did its job because John is walking and breathing....
3. There are two schools on this, one says the cage sould bend and absorb energy like the crumple zones on a modern car. The other says it should be a fawking rock with no give...thats me.

Why? Lets look at it, if you build a cage with a certain amount of give that cage will do an excellent job 90% of the time and when you bend a section you cut it out and replace it. However, a cage is just that "a cage" which is all tied together and basically hinged against itself and if that cage gets say the same type of abuse Depot would put on a cage over time the whole cage will become fatigued. We have all seen it, the torque box on a Mustang is a perfect example. Put enough torque into it over a certain amount of time and it will crack like an egg.

So therefore my belief is to make the safety zone (A pillar, roof hoops and B pillar) as strong as possible without interfering with the comfort and use of the vehicle. The rest of the cage is a support system for the inner cage and the body (where avaiable) is the crumple zone used to dispurse the energy of the roll, crash etc.

The thing here is its all about learning as we build which is why I started this post, I was most interested when I looked at the pictures of the tumble Mudlite took and I needed to evaluate what happened. I got my answer from Mudlites reply too, 1.5 inch tweak after a hard roll that is attributed to a hard roll, space limitations affecting what could be done with the cage and a hard fawking roll.

What do I take from all this? Lots actually which will all affect how I build my cage for my own purposes.

Cool? :beer:

[MuddMachine]

Well the one thing that John said (and I agree 100%) about xtra duty caging is gettin in and out of the vehicle. Alot of people right now are at a certain point........rigs are quite built up and if we're gonna go well beyond the present stage, we are really takin out trail function and going more comp style. More cage = less stuff. Now ya gotta pic what you want less of. Crumple zone wasnt that large in Mudlites case, Id say well within the acceptable limits. But wtf do I know, Im still on zook diffs.........

:baby: