Flat Towing....

[Depot]

My understanding from conversations with MTO guys has yeilded the following conclusions but i do not know this for 100% certainty....

a vehicle being towed behind another is considered a device, not a trailer. sorta like cement mixers or wood chippers for example. They do not require plates or brakes.

thigs they do require...

•tow bar... not tow chain or rope... duh!!!
•safety chains with locking clasps.
•ur tow bar must be secured to ur zuk properly with a secondary device... i.e. if u bolt ur tow bar to ur zuk, they a cotterpin though the nut to prevent it from backing off is required - just like TRE's.
•ball must have proper pin locking it in, same for pintow
•proper lighting and reflectors - ur stock truck should have the proper reflectors already so all u need is lights... parking (or running), brake and turn - those magnetic ones tow trucks use are good enough.
•it must be sound... axels intact, good bearings (including wheel bearings), nothing dangling off it like mud flaps or wheel wells....
•all cargo must be safely secured in or on vehicle - goes without saying.

•any bolt, nut, chain, or strap u use to secure anythign with must be rated for the loads its expected to handle under extreme cases. i.e. the bolts that connect ur tow bar to ur zuk MUST be hardened.. I dont know which one exactly but if I was u, I'd be using grade 8 bolts period... they cost a few more bucks but its a matter of peoples lives. Dont forget, match the grade for bolts, nuts and washers... dont be cheap here... a grade 8 bolt is useless if ur using a grade 2 nut and it strips.

•above all else, use common sense. If it looks dangerous, it prolly is. Think about the worst case scenario and try to protect urself from that.

---

a couple other notes about flat towing...

•check and repack ur wheel bearings!!!!!! Especially after a long weekend event... think about it... u beat ur truck for 3 days on the trail, now ur about to tow it home doing 100 kph vs 5 on the trail. Are u gonna hear a bearing squeal while ur towing it on the 401?

•when u stop for gas, food, drink or drain.. do a circle check and kick the tires. feel ur hubs and bearins.. are they burning up? this goes for trailers too!

•remove ur rear driveshaft especially for long hauls. Remove ur front if u cant unlock front hubs. ur t-case is designed to spin the axels and not the other way around. leaving a d-shaft in will cause the shaft to spin the case forcing the gears to ride on the coast side. This is not by any means an MTO requirement.. more like a preserve and maintain ur trucks longevity thing. All this crap about leaving ur t-case in 2wd and tranny in nuetral is just that, crap! It takes 10 minutes to re and re a shaft... ur gears will thank u for it when u lean on em.

This is all that I can think of 4 now... if anyone else has anymore to add, please do!

Gl

D

[GearHead]

thanks for the info.
later
steve

[frwinks]

good info :beer:

I just picked up a tow bar and some safety chains... now just need towlights and I'm set :)
thanks

[Zukinator]

All Good Advice.

a couple things to add... Weight restrictions. A vehicle being flat towed is not like a trailer. that vehicle is under it's own weight limitations, i.e. you do not need a CVOR to flat tow a vehicle which combined weight of it and your truck would put your weight limit over the max.

Remember to unlock the steering wheel when you tow. Put the key in to Aux. position. if you are towing a long way and are concerned about the battery, take the 2 sec to disconnect the neg. This will save your steering setup on those corners that you would otherwise drag the truck around.

Remember the braking room.. common sense especially in rain or snow. you now have 2500lbs pushing you from behind, and in bad weather.. can throw you for a loop if you need to brake, so leave the space in front of you!

tim

[Dxray]

•safety chains with locking clasps.

•ur tow bar must be secured to ur zuk properly with a secondary device... i.e. if u bolt ur tow bar to ur zuk, they a cotterpin though the nut to prevent it from backing off is required - just like TRE's.
Gl

D

So do the chains attache to the zook? or from tow bar to hitch??

Also i was thinking of using 1/2 solid round bar with spring clips for easy dismantle. Would that be ok? or does it have to be bolted?

[Fullload]

You should be fine with the 1/2 inch solid round bar and the pins. Probally be cheaper to go to canadian tire and buy the 1/2 or 5/8 hitch pins that you use for the reciever on the back of your truck. As long as there is no slop back and forth i do not think they will say much.
When it comes to safety chains i look at it this way. If it can fall off the ball (which chains are required on trailers) it can fall off the part where uit attaches to the Zuk. Never hurts to chain both sides anyway.

[MuddMachine]

So do the chains attache to the zook? or from tow bar to hitch??

Also i was thinking of using 1/2 solid round bar with spring clips for easy dismantle. Would that be ok? or does it have to be bolted?

Chains must go from zook to tow rig. As far as the solid round bar goes, go with something bigger, 5/8" minimum.

[Depot]

If ur tow bar is not permanently attached to ur zuk, then u'll need chains from ur zuk to ur tow bar as well as from ur tow bar to ur tow rig.

Chains serve 2 purposes...

1 - keep ur load in case ur ball or pintow lets go
2 - keep ur trailer tongue or tow bar from hitting the ground if ur ball failed (hence u have to cross ur chains so that it can in fact catch the tongue).

Running a chain from ur tow rig to ur zuk dirrectly is not sufficient as it will not catch the tow bar if it falls.

D

[frwinks]

for short tows... 45min-1hr... with the rear shaft still in, I've been leaving the t-case in 2wd and tranny in neutural... should I be leaving both in neutural :roll:

[screech]

I was doing the same thing ,didn't seem to hurt mine

[Grumpy]

Remember the braking room.. common sense especially in rain or snow. you now have 2500lbs pushing you from behind, and in bad weather.. can throw you for a loop if you need to brake, so leave the space in front of you!

Hey, take it from this guy, he's even got the pics to prove what can go wrong, right Tim? :thefinger

Just remember, it's pretty hard to flat tow a Zuk with mangled running gear, so either you sign up with CAA or get yourself a TRAILER! (or as a last resort, you can pussyfoot around on the trails so you don't break anything :cool: )

[Depot]

Keep in mind... when u put ur t-case in neutral.. it does disconect the t-case from the tranny BUT and its a big BUT, it does engage ur front d-shaft. It may be weird to wrap ur head around it but its true... It doesnt matter if ur in 4wd hi, 4wd lo or neutral in the case.. once ur outta 2wd the front and rear outputs are locked together!!!!!!!

If u leave ur d-shaft in.... ur forcing the t-case and R&P to ride on the coast side of ur gears. Kinda like driving around in reverse for an hour... cant be good for anything.

Whether it be a 3 hour or 45 minute drive.. pull ur rear shaft out! its 4 lousy bolts... wtf??? i know zukers are cheap.. but comon.. we aint as lazy as heepers now too are we???

gl

D

[extremekickin]

I flat tow mine 5 hrs and just drop the rear shaft. 10mins and we're on the road.
P.S You should see the looks you get pullin a kick with a kick :yike :yike

[Depot]

word to the wise.... when u disconect ur rear shaft from rear third... remove it completely... i.e. pull it outta the slip portion... u can leave the ther 1/2 in the t-case, maybe a bungee cord to keep it from bouncing.

2 yrs ago suzican.. buddy disconected shaft and bungeeed the entire shaft. A few hours later at a gas stop he noticed he lost 1/2 the shaft. Now not only was he out a d-shaft but imagine that thing bouncing down the 401 at 100 kph :beatup:

D

[Canadian_zuk]

I remember reading about that one! :D

[frwinks]

yea, f this flat towin' smit.. I'm picking up the steel tomorree for my trailer... :D

[JoeDirt]

All Good Advice.


Remember to unlock the steering wheel when you tow. Put the key in to Aux. position. if you are towing a long way and are concerned about the battery, take the 2 sec to disconnect the neg. This will save your steering setup on those corners that you would otherwise drag the truck around.


tim

are you sure about unlocking the steering wheel? wouldent that be dangerious?the truck wont steer itself would it?

[Zukinator]

are you sure about unlocking the steering wheel? wouldent that be dangerious?the truck wont steer itself would it?

It is a must when flat towing to unlock the steering. If you castors are correct (which they should be to be safe) then your truck will track behind you as if you are driving it, the wheels should steer around corners etc. If you do not unlock the steering and you turn, you are essentially dragging your truck all over the place, and putting a lot of strain on many parts of your truck. Not to mention if you lock your steerig not quite straight you are F#$%^NIG your tires up dragging it crooked..

Tim

[TheSarg]

If you castors are correct


DO NOT flat tow unless it is, holy moses it sucks when turning a corner and yer truck turns the opposite way and u hear the tires just being eaten alive by the black top, and u have to get out in traffic and turn the steeering wheel back the opposite way..............VERY dangerous, trust me :D

[Zukinator]

DO NOT flat tow unless it is, holy moses it sucks when turning a corner and yer truck turns the opposite way and u hear the tires just being eaten alive by the black top, and u have to get out in traffic and turn the steeering wheel back the opposite way..............VERY dangerous, trust me :D


HAHA I can see that now..

That sounds like too much positive castor... I have the oposite issue, (just off a bit) to much negative.. When I pull it around corners it turns a bit (dose fine on highway, but hard turn in the city.... :beatup: ) but not enough, essentially tracks straight fine, but gently cornering, but doesn't like to turn much. (should be fixed before the weekend)..

Negative castor can be equilly dangerous though,. think you are on wet, or slippery roads and you are about to make a turn, but the vehicle you are towing doesn't want to turn.. wo what happens.. it keeps going straight pushing the back of your tow rid with it.. Trust me, this is from experience.

So Take Sargs Note, castor is REALLY important when flat towing!

tim

[Depot]

This is no joke! Full and i tried to flat tow my zuk from the ranch one day and we couldnt even make it out the driveway... as he turned right, my truck would vere left hard dragging his truck around. My steering looked a lot like graders - flop/flop.

Toy axels are very picky on castor so if u mess with it, u'll prolly have to cut and turn ur knuckles to resotre the angle if u wanna flat tow safely.

gl

D

[Fullload]

Yup the same thing happened to me when i cut and turned my knuckles. So i bought a trailer!!! flat towing solved.

Seriously don't mess with it if you don't have to. When i cut and turned i "tested it in a neighbour hood at slow speeds before the run to allow me time to come up with an altenate solution which i needed. same this as sarge to much positive castor.

[MuddMachine]

Yup the same thing happened to me when i cut and turned my knuckles. So i bought a trailer!!! flat towing solved.

Seriously don't mess with it if you don't have to. When i cut and turned i "tested it in a neighbour hood at slow speeds before the run to allow me time to come up with an altenate solution which i needed. same this as sarge to much positive castor.

You were on the right track, just didnt turn enough. Lack of experience, being it was the first one you did. Now you know for next time. I hate the feel of negative castor, even at slow speeds.

[Fullload]

I'm just glad i never fixed it cause the new spring location on the kick is different and turned my pinion up a little too much so it got worse. It'll be fixed soon enough.

[Lost Soul]

What is the opinon of flat tow vs Dolley tow with a locked rear Sammy axle??

I have a chance to get a stacked dolley cheap and I would like to use it, but if I weld the rear, am I going to be in trouble?

[Canadian_zuk]

What is the opinon of flat tow vs Dolley tow with a locked rear Sammy axle??

I have a chance to get a stacked dolley cheap and I would like to use it, but if I weld the rear, am I going to be in trouble?


no more trouble than flat towing it. With the dolly, you could always back it on and free-wheel your front tires. Just make sure the steering is straight.

[Lost Soul]

That was the initial plan, but I am using the harness including the Signal and light switches from the Tracker, so I will not have a steering lock to engage. I would have to put the front up.

[vanbdan]

What is the opinon of flat tow vs Dolley tow with a locked rear Sammy axle??

I have a chance to get a stacked dolley cheap and I would like to use it, but if I weld the rear, am I going to be in trouble?


Well,I don't know about welded,but i dolly'ed mine back from Sudbury to Oshawa,locked in the rear,and had no problems.

van :hubba:

[Fullload]

You'll be fine. rear wheels down with the rear shaft disconnected.

[Lost Soul]

You'll be fine. rear wheels down with the rear shaft disconnected.

Thanks, I was just worried as I have never done a flat tow and I heard open they are easy to tow that way.

[Fullload]

Thanks, I was just worried as I have never done a flat tow and I heard open they are easy to tow that way.

yeah open is a little easier as the two rear tires and not fighting to turn the same time but it has no affect while towing just a weird rubber chirp noise as you corner from the tires.

[Mud Lite]

I wouldn't recomend towing backwards on a dolly. It's not a good way to find out that you have death wobble. Had a friend loose the truck as it came off the dolly. Keep the front up and don't worry about it. Disconnect the shaft and you'll be good to go.

[89lxstanger1]

you know lost soul i got a trailer for sale cheap, you no where i live nad how to get in touch!

[Lost Soul]

you know lost soul i got a trailer for sale cheap, you no where i live nad how to get in touch!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[89lxstanger1]

dont be gay! a dolly is kinda pusy like get a trailer and be a real man :thefinger
when the **** breaks from towing the sammy dont worry my 1 ton will be glad to take up the slack :beatup:

[Lost Soul]

dont be gay! a dolly is kinda pusy like get a trailer and be a real man :thefinger
when the **** breaks from towing the sammy dont worry my 1 ton will be glad to take up the slack :beatup:


Done, I might be ditching the XJ anyway, after this season, we will see how the Zook works out.

[JoeDirt]

just found an interesting link to towing your rig to the trails I would like to share if your interested http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/21498/

[Patrickbuilt]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/l_reason/PICT0656.jpg I flat tow my SJ410 buggy with my pickup. I made a simple tow bar. It mounts to the front bumper, the mounts for the tow bar also doubles as a winch mount for a small 2000lb superwinch o picked up brand new at a yard sale $60. I have towed it up to about 110 km/h with out any problems over short distances. I’m yet to disconnect the driveshafts due to only towing the short distances. I thought I would toss my ideas out because it seems to be working well. http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/l_reason/71a9f49d.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/l_reason/PICT0658.jpg http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/l_reason/PICT0702.jpg

[Depot]

hmmmmm... from what i see, I aint liking it too much. theres a reson tow bars and trailer tongues are made in a V shape.. theres a LOT of stresses side to side when towing. im concerned for 2 reasons...

1 - the mounts on ur front bumper are too close together.. the shear forces excerted under turns may be too much for such a narrow mount.

2 - the bar itself seems pretty weak for the application.... being a long straight piece - kinda looks like round tube too - I can see that bar bending sideways, specially in emergency situations.

i would suggest making ur tow bar into a V design with ur bumper mounts further apart. Im no expert here but IMHO I think its an accident waiting to happen.

gl

D

[Depot]

also, i dont see any chains between ur tow bar and p/u truck... thats a must for safety and by law. They should be designe in such a way that if ur tow ball breaks, the chains will catch the tongue and prevent it from digging into the ground so they gotta be long enough to allow ur trailer to turn, be short enough as to not drag on the ground, and be criss crossed to catch a failing tongue.

gl

D

[vanbdan]

, , and be criss crossed to catch a failing tongue.D

thanks,Depot,I wondered why they were required to be crossed.

van :hubba:

[Mud Lite]

hmmmmm... from what i see, I aint liking it too much. theres a reson tow bars and trailer tongues are made in a V shape.. theres a LOT of stresses side to side when towing. im concerned for 2 reasons...



I agree here too!!! That is just plain scarry!!!! :pray: Do us all a favour and fix this up to make it safe.

[MuddMachine]

:yike :yike :yike :yike :yike

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a334/l_reason/PICT0656.jpg

:yike :yike :yike :yike :yike

[Patrickbuilt]

You can’t really see what everything is made of the bumper and gussets are made from Hardox 4 steel and can’t be drilled or cut without a plasma cutter. The tow bar is a 2” tube with a 1.5” solid bar welded inside it. As for the tow chain the cable that is wrapped around the bar is not for any lights it’s a 3/8” steel cable that’s rubber coated with a clevis attaching it to the ford P/U. I know full well that it would be better to have a V shaped tow bar but I’m confident it’s built strong enough the way it is. I have towed the buggy down some twisty trail just to see how it will hold up I’m yet to find any stress marks or cracking.

[Mud Lite]

why take the chance? this thing could come apart at ant time and kill someone. do it right and put some out riggers on it to the corners of the bumper. it's stuff like this that gives wheelers a bad name and even worse, zuk drivers.

[screech]

If you can't make a proper tow bar and you have to use that ,at least put some safty chains on it .When that bar breaks at least the chains will keep it attached to the tow vehicle,and the only damage will be to YOUR bumper

[MuddMachine]

Patrick no offense to you BUT-

MTO will own your sorry ass if they see this ;)

[JoeDirt]

you can get a proper bar for it at prinsses auto at a good price and im sure they will have chains as well,you can never be to safe.I would hate to be driving beside that with my kids in the car.

[Depot]

Steel cable is not legit for safety chains. Not to mention with that design, the cable will not prevent the tongue from hitting the ground if the ball fails. If MTO see's this contraption, not only will they park u, fine the piss outta ur ass, they may impound ur zook till u get a legitimate tow truck to recover ur zuk and that gets bloody expensive fast.

Get urself a real towbar and save urself a whackloa of grief and $$ in the future.

gl

D

[Grumpy]

One word for that, oops! $75 at Princess Auto, if you can afford to drive that Ford, you can afford a proper towbar. Or if you win the lottery, I'll sell ya my trailer!

grumpy

[Patrickbuilt]

I’ll take some of you guy’s advice, But I sure I’ve seen cables used on dump trucks with trailers. Now after a few calls to friends I found another V-tow bar that’s made from 2” square & 2 feet wide where it will meet the zook, which will be just inside the frame rails of the samurai. But just for fun I’ll be taking the sammy out for a bit of a ride behind the ford to see if I can get the old bar or its mounts to bend, twist or break. I’ll jackknife the 2 trucks on pavement to a right angle turn the zooks wheels strait and start pulling to see if I can get it to bend. I guess it will be a test for the front end parts as well. (I have a new samurai axel on the way anyhow for other reasons). I’ll keep you guys posted on the results. Any more input on the legality of tow chain vs cable? Here is what it says in the Hyw traffic act. ” Attachments required when vehicle drawn on highway 80. (1) No motor vehicle, other than a motor vehicle in which there is a person licensed to drive a motor vehicle on a highway, trailer or other object or device shall be drawn by a motor vehicle or farm tractor on a highway unless there are two separate means of attachment so constructed and attached that the failure of one such means will not permit the motor vehicle, trailer, object or device being drawn to become detached; but this section does not apply to a trailer, object or device attached or coupled to the towing vehicle by means of a fifth wheel attachment or to a trailer or other object or device when drawn directly across a highway by a farm tractor. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 80.”

[Depot]

U can read the letter of the law all u want... the simple fact of the matter is that ur chain will NOT prevent the tongue from hitting the ground in case of ball failure.... it will simply coil out till the tongue hits the ground. But ur more than welcome to argue that point with the MTO officer... we all know where im putting my money on that bet.

As far as how strong ur build is... i aint gonna argue with yah... u may very well have buil the strongest tow bar known to manking, but at the end of the day it doesnt have any certification on it like a CSA sticker or a certificate of mechanical fitness from a liscenced certifier etc etc.

At the end of the day, enough ppl that know their chit have pipped in and its pretty much agreed that that design is not safe nor legal. Do as u wish but when u get popped by MTO and are facing $1000+ in fines, i'll be the first person to pull over and laugh @ u.

gl

D

[Fullload]

i'll be the first person to pull over and laugh @ u.

gl

D


No you won't!!!! you'll drive by, blow the horn, flip the bird and then we laugh together.


Stopping just gives the MTO officer a reason to check us out and even though your all legal we don't need the hassle!!! :D


Sorry bud but the law can state anything and everything but the MTO guy on the highway is king. he says what goes at the time.

[Canadian eh!]

I flat tow mine 5 hrs and just drop the rear shaft. 10mins and we're on the road.
P.S You should see the looks you get pullin a kick with a kick


This is ok?????...I wudda thunk it 2 b dangerous givn the weight thang......
must handle like crap.......

:question: :question:

[Canadian_zuk]

This is ok?????...I wudda thunk it 2 b dangerous givn the weight thang......
must handle like crap.......

:question: :question:


I think everyone here finds this setup dangerous.

[extremekickin]

I didnt say it was safe but then we're not goin 130km either. And if i could aford a to buy a truck i would you can beleave that!

[Canadian_zuk]

I didnt say it was safe but then we're not goin 130km either. And if i could aford a to buy a truck i would you can beleave that!

WTF are you talkin about? Nobody said flat towing was unsafe. We just agree that Patrick's one armed bandit is unsafe.

[Buggy]

I think nothing is wrong with flat towing a suk.i got my suk from my dad the deal was i would rig it up for towing behing a motorhome and repair it to be dependable and when he was done with it its mine.so i got a tow bar from Princess Auto and instaled it with safty chains grade 8 bolts and weld a braket for the tow bar with the help a a pro welder installed a quick battry disconect,tow lights.this was a stock sammy no lift stock tires ect ect it was towed from saint john newbrunswick canada to flordia not once but twice with no problems all he did was disconected the battry and left the key on and the tranny in neutral no driveshaft removal no tow dolly just flat towed. that was over 4 years ago and to this day the rear end and transfercase has not failed yet

[Depot]

will u 2 get a room already geez :roll:

D

[Mud Lite]

lol, I was just coming on to post something similar!!!!:thefinger

We can all agree that Patrick's tow bar is Booty and towing one Zuk with another is also less than desirable.

Now go register for SuziCan and tell two friends to register as well. Then have those two friends tell.................:rant:

[Memphis]

What do you do for lights and such when flat towing? If you disconnect the Battery the lights won't work... so what do you guys do?

[Mudball]

What do you do for lights and such when flat towing? If you disconnect the Battery the lights won't work... so what do you guys do?

Princess Auto has a kit that includes two auxillury taillights on magnets and a wire harness tyhat plugs into your trailer lights connector. Stick those to the back of your zuk, plug them into your trailer lights, and flat tow to your hearts content ;)

[Zukinator]

Princess Auto has a kit that includes two auxillury taillights on magnets and a wire harness tyhat plugs into your trailer lights connector. Stick those to the back of your zuk, plug them into your trailer lights, and flat tow to your hearts content ;)


Exactly as MB wrote, or if you are doing a lot of flat towing you can wire in your exhisitng lights. just need top be a bit creative since Sami's have orrange turn signals.
Tim

[4drkick]

PS... When your almost new 2003 Frontier seems to have an alignment problem while flat towing another truck... ALWAYS CHECK YOUR TOW BAR...

Just to explain... My tow bar mount ripped off on the passenger side as I made my way down highway 7.... Yet another reason to get a trailer I guess..

Thank god the final tear happened while taking off at a green light... $280.00 tow later... I need to know some people in Pickering / Ajax area haha

Anyways, tow chains held and directed my zuk to follow straight 3ft to the right of me until I was able to pull over where there wasn't a ditch... I'm sure that made for an interesting view for the 50 cars tagging along behind me, but just so others that flat tow like I do.... I must have hit my mount on a rock coming off the rock formerly known as two step or somethin... If it had happened about 15 mins later, my truck woulda been rollin some funny way down the 407... so I guess we say I had the luck of the Irish that day... Still didn't break anything AT Suzican this year... hmmm.....

Brandon

[MuddMachine]

Just to explain... My tow bar mount ripped off on the passenger side as I made my way down highway 7.... Yet another reason to get a trailer I guess..


Sounds like either shitty welding or inadequate material or it was welded to something that wasnt made to handle it. Build yer shit properly and that should NEVER happen. Not tryin to break yer balls, just stating what seems to be the obvious.

[4drkick]

off-topic

This is the towing forum... Not General Dribble

D

[MuddMachine]

off-topic

This is the towing forum... Not General Dribble

D

[GearHead]

WAYYYY off-topic

This is the towing forum... Not General Dribble

D

[MuddMachine]

Many variables. If it was damaged over several years, a visual inspection the odd time would pick it up. If it was damaged on the trail, you'd see it.

My cousin lost the trailer off of his truck on Eglington Ave W years ago, he got 2 years less a day in jail for vehicular manslaughter, dig that !

[Offroad Nation]

My own personal learning experience came years ago flat towing my brothers almost completed 1975 nova on a tow bar . I made a turn and with the steering locked on the car and overconfidence in my driving and my trucks capabilities landed both vehicles in the ditch . Caution proper equip and common sense are your move valuable towing tools . That way you don't end up hurting someone, yourself or your rigs . That and your oversized over muscled meathead brother doesn't end up trying to pull your head off for wrecking his car ! And yeah yeah I know this coming from a guy hauling a big camper behind a ranger but believe me I actually am withing the trucks ratings . As long as I don't put anything too heavy in it like oh say a beer .