SAFTEY CONCERNS

[Mud Lite]

OK guys lets talk saftey. With 7 rolls this year, I am concerned about next year. How can we reduce the chances of personal injury during SuziCan?

Some ideas are:
-Mandetory Roll Cage rule- just for competition.
-Roll cages for super mods only.
-Non caged trucks to run a handicap in the modified class.
-cages required for certain obsticles ( bonus flags)
-have no capture the flag?

Was this as fun to watch as it was to compete? Would you still come if yu could only watch? I am worried that someone will get seriously hurt, and if this happpens I am not sure that I would be able to organize this event with a clear concience. I want your imput. I want everyone to have equal fun. What was missing this year? What would people like to see next year? Would a lunch waggon work? Would people prefer to be cattered to ( optional) or stay self contained. Would people pay more to have portable showers? I always like to make things better, but I need imput to mull around.

Thanks guys for all the thank your online and private. It makes this all worth doing!!!! :beer:

[SuziCrazy]

I guess pirates got you thinking?!?

I liked it just the way it was. Self contained, you need anything, there was always someone running into town (usually us running out of beer).

Just my 2 cents worth

[Terranaut]

I know I was unable to attend this year but from the looks of the pics I think a few things should change ...
I would mark trails with rollover potential with a cage only sign.
Someone will always dispute this but come on ...those pics made me move my cage install to almost the top of my to do list .
As far as showers or lunch wagons....Don't turn it into the **** jamboree.(not that I think you would)..That would suck ...close knit ...scratch my back I will scratch yours ...friend helping friend is always the best way to spend a weekend. Bring what you need...OK maybe a shower would be nice :D
I can't wait until next year ...I WILL be there for sure.
It looks and sounds like a very kick ass time ...Good work by all who are involved!

[Superzuk]

John, Mandatory seat belts... Why would you any club or organized event ever allow or even put up with not wearing seatbelts. I know people aren't children, but hey... someone's gotta knock some sense into people.

Also, helmets have been discussed in the past... maybe some helmets for the wild obstacles.

And cages...

Stock sammy cage is a sport cage, not a roll cage...

my two cents..

[Fullload]

Mudlite i really enjoyed the second days capture the flag. We could roam as we pleased and took our time as needed. I ran with a really cool bunch of guys, and it was a pleasure.
The only thing i would like to add next year is a video professional or five. This way when it comes time to capture the flag these guys can get alot of the hard obstacles and video of everyone doing them. So far with the t-shirts it was a pay up front thing and i'm pretty sure if gabby (waterboy productions) and a few of his buddies could be paid to do this next year. I would be happy to pre pay for something like that.
This year i have rolled twice in my own truck, and both times i was not bieng totall stupid and like i have heard in the past by numerous people, "you roll when you least expect it". how true it is. There is another saying and it goes the third time is a charm. I am not going to be involved with any "charms" unless i'm protected by some sort of steel tube/pipe around my noggin. I have been lucky twice and thats enough gambling for me.
I did every obstacle on the flag event with not one fear of rolling and you guys did a great job with flag placement so that it was tricky enough for a super modified rig to have fun but not too much of a chance of rolling. Don't get me wrong there were places that made your heart skip a beat but you knew that before you went in.
Even if you did mark the course with cage only signs there is always another way or another line that you did not think was doable, but someone tries and ends on thier side or roof.
They way i see it is that if people are silly enough to try the rock without a cage and there is a possibility of rolling what can you do. event organizers and trail narcs cannot be everywhere and hold everyones hand. I personally knew what i was doing and made a bad judgement call, therefore almost skinning my head off a rock. what will i do about it? I'm getting a cage before i wheel again. My truck is doing what i want it to do and more so it's now time.
Too bad i rolled twice to get it through my head but thats life.

I would just like to see a professional video and hard core guys to have a cage, or at least to know when to say " i may get hurt" and not do that obstacle. Ohhhhh what a perfect world it would be.

[Mud Lite]

Don't get me wrong here guys. I think its great the way it is. I just want to make sure I am cattering to the masses. I too don't want this to be a JooP Jamboree, but if people want some change , then there is always soething that we can improve on. I think that the Outhouses were a great addition to this years event. I am not sure if we can count on Gaby to do this event. He is back logged enough with 3 years of events. We have been waiting that long for the origianal ORA Rock-Off video. I think he does great stuff, but I can't count on him being there or getting the finished product out in a timely maner. If people want me to look into professional videos', then I can price it out. I'm sure with the extra footage from some of our own digital camcorders, we can suppliment his work.

As far as cages and seatbelts. Keep your thoughts coming. Seatbelts should always be on, it's in the rules and should be policed by all participants. If I was there, I would have called him on it.

Another point is signage. I appoulogise to anyone that missed the Rock Crawl because they couldn't find the hill. the intension was to have one group, but people were taking too long and the other were getting impatient. Next year I will have signs posted to the hill. Sorry once again.

John and Karen

[ZookVet]

John I had a great time, got exposed to just how unsafe it can be when your not familiar with off camber and what your truck can do.
One thought for next year is a mandatory strap (strap on!!) half way pu or down the obstackale, allowing you to do the event but have protection you can count on.
I guess the strap would have to be ancored into the ground by a steel rod, but if it is placed right and manned by the people watching, it could work.
This is only to stop you last moment, so it won't be in your way?
Just a another thought.
I do believe in helmits and maybe we can generate some income towards the videos by charging a small fee to those who are going to do waht we designate the super mod's or dangerous events.
i think showers are an idea. Mobile ones would work, but then so would a coffee truck!!!
see you at the next event, I got the bug bad.

[zukin]

hi john i think the capture the flag day was a blast,maybe next year there could be some small mud pits for the guys that arent to sure about the rocks,as for the seat belts maybe we should police ourselfs.if someone is trying a flag or whatever and they dont have there belt on,just ask them to slide it on.next year can we run the tass trail/rock crawl on sat afternoon most people have to leave sunday and it would give everyone another choice other then pinion pass. :D

[lil beast]

I think at least a helmet would be a minimum requirement for some of the harder runs. a helmet can be had almost anywhere. Canadian tire, Walmart, etc. for under $100. Cheep for a life saving item.

My 2 pennies.

[Terranaut]

Helmuts are a great idea.
Seeing as a rollover or tumble has no speed involved I would say a bike or skateboard helmut would do and can be had for $20 at CTC.
Not wearing a seatbelt is just stupid and I don't want to be around a guy who gets squished in front of my kids by his rig rolling over him ... No belt ...Go home :bang:

[Fullload]

I had my belt on all times. Both of my rolls were with a belt and i was so surprised on how capable a regular seatbelt was. it held me in where it was supposed too and i could have been hurt if it was not on. I know this is not an excuse but if you have no cage a belt is your next best friend.

For those of you that do not know Zookvet is my pops. Here is a pic of him on the ramp in his SPOA 4.62 geared open diff 1.6 EFI on a 1.3 block (built in 4 days)

[SuziCrazy]

I'm not against the ideal of wearing head gears before entering into obstacles.. Life is priceless so what's another safety precaution?!?..

I enjoyed having the outhouses there rather than digging a hole ;)

I sell portable shower units at work (chemical wash units), I'll price them out and maybe we can all pitch a few $$$ when we want to use them?!?

BTW Welcome "pops"

[Depot]

nice hijack fullload :D

Depots's views :
Capture the flag was absolutely awesome!!!

Seatbelts - mandatory! No excuses even 4 passangers.

Helmets - mandoatory for those extreme obstacles like "kiss my ass" and even pinion pass maybe.

Roll Cages - Again, mandatory if ur gonna try anything with the "potential" of rolling over. Stock zuk roll bars are useless as Fulload demonstrated so well. it is unreasonable to expect everyone to have a decent roll cage but it is NOT unreasonable to demand a decent cage if ur gonna try potentially risky obstacles especially in an organised event such as suzican where legal liability may become an issue.

Catered lunches - no way. An organized timmy's run in the morning would be awesome. Maybe even tie it to a fuel run at the same time for those with jerry cans.

Hot showers - that would be pretty pimp. I nominated Mudpig to clean em after 100 ppl have a shower! :boot:

Wake up calls - a suggestion specially considering this year there was at least 3 seperate camp grounds going. With drivers meetings and runs set at specific times, i think it would be handy to have a set wake up call time to ensure everyone has enough time to get ready, eat breakfast, etc.

video - i really like the idea of some high quality vid footage especailly at some of the more extreme chalanges. I'd be willing to chip in a few extra bucks for that perk.

my 17 cents :)

D

[longy442]

This was my first Suzican and I wasn't sure what to expect. I figured with my nearly stock chevette powered rig I would have a hard time even getting to roll over and risky situations. NOT SO. It got to several potential roll overs especially during capute the flag. John actually saw me up on the spot where Mike Lagace rolled his over and told me don't bother coming down just go ahead under the ropes at the top to get out and back on the trail. Smart move as it was likely too steep to come down. How pissed off my wife would have been to have me come home dead. thx John. I'm sure I'll be back next year but I will be much more protected for sure. Everything else was great I thought. Ya blow a air horn 5 minutes before drivers meetings and stuff like that and no one would miss. Awsome time. PS Depots roll into the trees could have easily hurt him if a short tree stump had come through the roof. All the safety in the world can't stop an accident, thats why they call them that.

[TheSarg]

No cage? run with the stockers. Cold? perhaps, but with that many rollovers its just a matter of time until somebody is seriously injured and the whole future of the event is jeprodized <sp?> I look back to last year and cant believe i entrusted my wife to my driving skills and no cage.

Ya put around a grand into yer drive train, almost a grand into a winch, prolly over a grand into tires, wtf is the problem with a decent $500 cage that will stop ya from bein dead. Many have recently realized that even the most careful and cautious of drivers also roll. Last year was 2 rolls, this year 7, next year????
Maybe somebody on this site with good welding skills and a bender could offer an inexpensive drop in cage that will at least prevent the passenger compartment being colapsed on impact?

Sarg

[Depot]

PS Depots roll into the trees could have easily hurt him if a short tree stump had come through the roof.

u know, after watching the video the same thought occured to me. Doing endos in sand or mudd is one thing but trees and rocks is much riskier. i think I'll be covering my roof with some expanded metal b4 i push the limits like that again.

D

[Superzuk]

Guys, everyone here has pushed the limits before without the proper protection. I know personally of three accidents in the last year concerning no seat belts:
1. I for one have fallen out of a vehicle while rolling, at probably less than 3km an hour... I was being pulled out of a steep ditch in a Dune Buggy... The Dune Buggy landed on its side on my chest with the weight of the wheels and engine over me... If it had rolled over just a bit more, it would have crushed me.


2. My wife's 25 year old brother was ejected and killed ina roll over (70 Km /hour July 13th last year), no seat belt.

3. A local wheeler was ejected from his sidekick after crashing 3 months ago, narrowly escaping being a quadrapeligic. He has a broken neck and is recovering.

I am certain that everyone has stories like this. Let's all take care of each other, and remember that any accident like that will imp;act each and every one of us. The event could be cancelled. People could be held liable. And finally the trails could be shut down.


Enough of that.

Showers are a good idea.
Video Camera??? Well, some people would pay and others might not. (Selling the videos might be easy though) I'd definetely buy one.

[Twinkie]

2. My wife's 25 year old brother was ejected and killed ina roll over (70 Km /hour July 13th last year), no seat belt.

3. A local wheeler was ejected from his sidekick after crashing 3 months ago, narrowly escaping being a quadrapeligic. He has a broken neck and is recovering.


Point 2-I didn't hear about that, was he from that area?

Point 3-I saw Harvey at UTNL, hadn't heard a thing about it before that (Chad neglected to mention it). Asked him about getting parts for my 'Kick from it, said nothing was left, was an absolute right off. He's lucky to be walking (and alive for that matter).

[Superzuk]

yeah, He was from the area. You probably knew him.
As for Harvey, VERY lucky to be alive and walking. Could happen to anyone.

[Mudslug]

Comment and a Hijack

A cage (to me) should be manditory for any offroading event that includes rock crawling or inclines of any kind (within reason) John takes on alot of risk putting Suzican together, the insurance alone must be killer. Cage, seatbelt, properly installed seats (think about it) and a first aid kit should be a must for everyone.

The problem with building a cage is the cost, everyone thinks that $500 is more than enough to cover the cost....it isn't. The steel itself before the consumables is about $400 and its not getting any cheaper. Price it yourself 1.75/120 wall DOM is fawking expensive, like $4.70/ft. No I won't use pipe or CREW or HREW...DOM only.

Example, a small cage is about 60 feet of tubing (with off cuts).
60 feet 1.75 120 wall Steel tube $325
10 feet 1.00 120 wall tube $25
4 feet of .120x 4inch plate $15
Chop saw blade $15
Grinding disks $20 (fitting properly is a bitch)
Other consumables $40

So we are now up to $440 and we haven't even stripped the rig for the cage yet or found the suprises that all vehicles hide for us. $60 for all the work needed to install a cage?? no way...thats like $3/hour.

I am going to be using Scotty's rig as the template for open top cages and Mightymouses for Tin Tops...a group buy would push the pricing down. should I start another thread??

[Mud Lite]

I don't want to go into the whole Pipe vs Tube thing here, but an adequit cage can be built for a few hundred dollars. Mike's pipe cage was around 200 in material and sustained no damage after a complete barrel roll.

I don't want to force people to build cages because it would limit the entries to the event, and I don't want to do that. I just want to make it safe for all that do attend. If that means limiting the harder obsticles to trucks with cages, so be it.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed is the hands off spotter rule. I think with every hard obsticle there should be a spotter on the end of a rope. It would have saved most of the rolls that happened. Unfortuantley for Depot, that hole punch string wasn't strong enough...LOL

I think this past weekend was an eye opener for a number of people and i think that we will see more and more cages going in over the next year.

[Mudslug]

When was that cage built?? Steel has doubled in the past 2 months...

[Twinkie]

When was that cage built?? Steel has doubled in the past 2 months...
All materials were purchased and the cage was built within 2 weeks of SuziCan (I think the final touches were put on the Tuesday before).

[Mudslug]

What does pipe cost per foot these days?

[lil beast]

What does pipe cost per foot these days?

Got a price today and it was $22.00 for 12ft + tax.

You can buy a pipe bender and enough material to make a decent cage that covers the driver/passenger for less then $200 (when the bender is on sale at pricess auto). ;)

[Mudslug]

$1.83/foot...good deal, DOM is $4sumtin a foot right now

[gobig]

i think for me i will have a cage before the next event, or i won't do the harder obsticles. couldn't do some of them anyway, my carb sucks!!!!
i know for the most part i had my belt on, but not always.after seeing what could and can happen, i might even invest in a harness for both front seats.
i know for me i had a difficult time with what my samurai can and can't do, when you see one person doing something, it doesn't mean yours can do the same thing , every ones rig acts different and handles different.with a cage in place by next year, i will be able to try different things with my rig and not be affraid of rolling and killing myself,which will let me learn the limitations of my rig!!!!
i think every here seems to agree on the cage thing and seat belts are a must.
maybe have a trail run for the rigs with out a cage so that there is something to do for every one, and not just watch the others play!!!!!!
showers.....who cares the lake was a blast,and is refreshing.wake up call is cool , and if you can't pack a lunch then you don't eat....simple!!!!!
i think the event is well organized, and alot of fun.

[Superzuk]

Go to a steel recyclers and buy the pipe tehre. 20-25 cnts a pound is the going rate... can get a super cheap cage that way, and it IS better than no cage!!!
If anyone needs a steel hookup for cheap recycled stuff, let me know... that's mostly what I use unless it's not available.

[GearHead]

here is my $0.02

Cages are a great idea. but that opens up the whole pipe vs tube, and the fact that most of these cages will be home built by noncertified welders, and home designed with little engineering background. Is this better that nothing, ....sure.......but who will make the ruling that you cage is adequate, and does that open up more lieability if a cage that has been deemed OK fails.

It will also be hard to define what obsticles have "roll-over" potential. really you could roll you truck on the road to the first trailhead. I have wheeled my truck for about ten years without a cage, never been on its lid, i just know its limits and when a tire starts to get light i will try a different line. would i like a cage, sure but time and money become a factor. Should i be limmited to obsticles i can or can not attempt...no. i all comes down to the driver. I should know what my truck is capable of and assess the risk to myself, my truck and any spectators. One think i will not do is try the more extreem obsticles with a passenger.

Helmuts....yes for the more extreem obsticles, one for everone inthe truck attemping the obsticle. cheap insurance

Seatbelts.......YES, do we really have to explain this one.

Hands off for spotters....yes, it also keeps some distance between the trucks and the spotters, less change of injury to the spotter.

As far as the rules.....what do the joop guys do?? and the Zookmelt in the states? As minimum requirments i think that current rules regarding seat belts and cages are good for the modified and stock clases. The super-modifieds could include full role cage. The stock and modified classes still need some challenging trails or people will just stay home.

As far as the stock sport bar in the samurai soft tops i have to disagree with depot. That bar did its job, if it had not been there fulload would most likely have pancaked the targa bar and suffered head injuries. yes a full cage would have done better, but the sport cage is a good minimum. i guess we should ask fulload.....

Most of the roll overs happened on the capture that flag event...correct?
maybe some of the flags or the bonus flags should have been for super modified rigs and some of the easier flags for the other classes only, or allowing a different line to the flag for the non-supermodified rigs, this could be a simple as allowing them to exit at the top of the obstical, but once again drivers should know there limits, maybe because it was a "event" people felt the need to get every flag. There were obsticles that i did not attempt because i know that i would roll. There were others that i just winched up from the start because of the risk. There should be enough flags that it is not possible to get them all in the alotted time, this would bring some stratagey into the event.

showers?? really? there is a perfectly good lake.

i liked the portapotties and i sure the MNR will too. i left the camp late and all that remained was the portapoties and some flattened grass.

I'm looking forward to next year

later
steve

[Fullload]

I think the stock roll bar and targa bar did thier job perfectly. Think about it, everything around me bent squashed and crushed except my head. I was very lucky and will say that till the cows come home. It was not a mild flop on the side where we could have a chuckle. it was a full endo backwards and if not for my bumper it could have gone further.
Gearhead. ( i'm not picking on you, just making a point. please take no offense) you have been wheeling your truck for ten years without an incident correct. You also just put in a rear locker. I,ve been wheeling for 3 years and have gone from 31 bald AT's open diff to a capable super modified rig. This is also the first year that i have rolled or flopped. I'm still testing my limits and the trucks limits.
I'm not saying that you don't know how to wheel or that you are not happy with your truck and it's capabilities, i'm saying that i built my truck to tackle harder obstacles and test two things. The limit of the truck and the limit of the driver behind the wheel. I'm not happy with a mildly built truck anymore.
I wanna wheel hard and with that comes certain responsibilities and expenses. Sure i was silly in doing some of those obstacles without a cage but i did all but the hard bous flag without rolling. I was smart about what i was doing. Does that make me crazy for trying without a cage or does that make me smart for doing all of the obstacles without a roll. (proper driver navigation and a good spotter. thanks Matt) either way i felt that i was not doing anything that my truck was not able to do and what i thought it could not i never attempted like the hard bonus that depot tried.(who was caged and strapped in)
When i rolled that was stupidty and bad judgement. I misread the terrain and concentrated on the driver side of the truck (what i saw) and never had a spotter on the other side nor did i have anyone on the strap. The passanger side was off the ground before i thought it was and proceeded until the front drivers side lifted and then stopped not knowing at that point it was too late cause both of my front tires were off the ground already, which resulted in a roll.
Was that Mudlites fault? or any other organizers fault? No. it was mine, cause i was behind the wheel. would he feel bad if i got hurt. Yes you betcha! like any other person with a shred of humanity.
Will i roll again? Probably, but at least i will be prepared for it, with a cage. And a seatbelt (maybe 5 point) and if it is a serious event where points matter, a helmet, but if it is just for fun i'll back down before i feel a roll coming on.

[Depot]

yes, the tagra bar did its job - barely. If u look at where it stopped, another few inches and fulload woould not have been so lucky. it folded like a pancake. Sure its better than nutin but dont get a false sense of security from that bar alone. Simply by welding in an angle piece from opposing corners and securing it to the body much better than factory will make 1000% improvement.

This was a close call and we should all learn from it. If u wanna wheel harder and do more chalanging bstacles, put in a cage period! If u cant wled, get someone who can. If it costs u 500 bucks, who the **** cares? Thats a hell of a lot less than one of those motorized wheelchairs that u have to drive around with a joystick in ur mouth cause ur a paraplegic and its a hell of a lot less that the average funeral these days.

This has nothign to do with pipe vs dom or designs or anything like that.. its common sence life saving stuff.

As far as this pertains to suzican, I'll say it again, its an organized and insured event. Serious legal liabilities and reprocussions are just hovering around waiting for shit to happen. Contributory negligence, forseeability, etc.

putting the personal injury side down for a second.. lets say for example that fulload got severely hurt or even killed? U tell me his parents, wife, siblings or kids, whoever wont try to sue the organizers, the spotters, the MNR? and prolly even win.

offroading is a dangerous sport. shti does happen. proper precautions must be taken and if $$ is a factor preventing u from taking those precautions, then dont do the riskier stuff or dont wheel. hence it will be upto the organizers to determine what is risky and what isnt ultimatly.

D

[DannyL]

I have a few questions.

What plans were/are made in the case of a trauma?

We all know we're not next door to a hospital or easily accessible to an ambulance in the case of an accident.

What would happen in such a case?

I have training in first aid but I think in the event of a bad accident time is
crucial.

Do cell phones work in the dam and powerline areas? If not maybe a satellite phone would be a good idea......

I'm just thinking of the worst, but after 7 rolls we better get it together "incase".

Hope this fits into the subject.

[Depot]

very good question. Some sort of emergency response plan would be a great idea and make sure all participants know about it and what they have to do in an emergency. damn, i think the sky is falling! :yike

D

[Mud Lite]

We have never had this sort of problem ( if it is a problem) at any other of our events. I have been wheeling for 16 years and the worst accident I have seen or had was putting my own hand into a fan. I would say that for next year we ask for volonteers that have current or relatively current first aid treatment to wear first aid arm bands. It is hard for anyone medic to be everywhere on the course, but if we have 4 or 5 volonteer medics it would be a good thing. Once a problem happens CB comunication can be sent back to organizers who will have to either run to a point where Cel phones get service, or even better would be having someone with a Ham radio and a repeater set up for land line comunication. I have friends that are in a Ham Radio club, and this is the kind of stuff they live for. have them come out and set up a comunication base and they will be in their hayday!!!

Questions: who has current firstd aid certification?
-who is licenced with Ham radio?
- who has a satelite Cel?

[GearHead]

working for the region my first aid and cpr is updated every two years.
I always have my first aid kit with my on trails, but a planned responce would be a good idea. Someone should talk to the local fire/ambulance/police and see how far in they will come in to the trails and if there is a suitable landing site for a helicopter in the event of a major injury. Probably the paved turn around at the top of the hill. This could be a pre-arange meeting place if we require medical assitance.
we might also find that the person should not be moved and someone will have to drive out and meet the ems personel and drive them in with the ambulance to follow as far as possible, if at all.
The ham radio to a land line is a great idea. alternatavily anyone got onstar in there tow rig? this seems to work everywhere.

later
steve

[screech]

I was'nt able to come to this years event but I hope to be there next year. I have had first aid and CPR but should be updated , I have also been a volenteer fire fighter and I am a ham radio operator . If I can make it next year I would be glad to help out .

[GearHead]

fulload and depot, I think we are making the same point in different ways. (no offense taken)
I fully agree that if your build your truck to push its limits, the limits of the driver, and take on every obstacle, then yes the bucks invested into a cage make perfect sense.
Myself I have not built this type of truck....call me old school but its mostly factory stuff with a basic spoa, longer shocks and some other mods. I built my truck so that it is still streetable, meaning that I can drive it at 110 on the 401 or play with it off road.
I have been quite happy with my truck and driving style, I'm out there to have fun.

The classes could be broken down this way.

stock - small lift if any, stock to 30" tires, no locker"

modified - lifted trucks, 31" or larger tires, possibly one locker

super modified - lifted trucks 31"+ or larger tires, at least one locker two recommended

unlimited - anything goes, full roll protection


Yes the number of rollovers at suzican got me thinking about a cage, yes if I want to take on some of the more roll-over risky obstacles next year I will invest the time and money into a cage of some sort.

My fear is depots statement that "...........mandatory if ur gonna try anything with the "potential" of rolling over......." will lead the trucks without cages will be just there as spectators. the potential to roll over is always there....hey these are samurai's. you can roll on the rti ramp at camp...or on the trail between obstacles.

I feel that the cage rule should be for those obstacles where a rollover is "likely" and that it would be more that a flop to the side, or more that one roll in any direction. I think the stock roll protection is adequate for a simple roll, with the use of helmets the driver should be fine. yes there are always exceptions.
This year should be a good guideline for which obstacles will "likely" cause a roll.

I feel that the trail runs that suzican has had so far should be OK with the factory roll protections, from what I remember pinion pass had the most roll potential at the top but most trucks were normally on the winch by that point. the "strap on, spotters hand off rule" would be good idea.

As far as the capture the flag event.....I still think that different lines to the same flag would work. this would cut down on the number of gates.
Make the supermodifieds (with cages aka unlimited) take the hard line, but offer a different line to the modifieds and the stockers. This may be a simple as allowing the modifieds and the stockers to exit the obstical at the top, or allowing them to cross out of bounds. You could use two colours of tape, yellow as out of bounds for super modifieds and red as out of bounds for everyone, if you were trying to keep people away form sensitive area's. If you thing about it the modified's are not in competition with the super modified's anyway.



later
Steve

[Depot]

I agree with one small exception. i think even the stock trucks should reinforce the stock roll bar with one diagnal support - say fron the drivers side top to the passanger side bottom of the targa bar. u wont lose much space or any functionality and it'll keep ur nogin safe for those fluke rolls or flops. the cost 4 that is very small and the benefits are huge. As trucks get bigger and badder then more roll cage should follow.

ur point about lockers is a very good one. its rare that a zuk with open/open will get into those situations where rolls become likely so less stringant rules should apply to them.

At the end of the day it comes down to common sense, if ur gonna build ur truck up like fullload and myself and others, then full cages should be there. If ur gonna stay relativly close to stock, then minor reinforcements are adequate.

D

[MuddMachine]

I agree with one small exception. i think even the stock trucks should reinforce the stock roll bar with one diagnal support - say fron the drivers side top to the passanger side bottom of the targa bar.

D

Personally I think that's a bit too anal. I also think John had "stock class" trails designated for 2003. Dont know how that worked this year. Best bet would be to lay out a general outline of what needs a 6 point minimum cage and then Suzican can have the right to refuse a participant if he/she is driving some mutant inbred of a shitbox. Also, for example, should someone like Depot show up in a stock zook , well....... sorry dude, you still need a sixpoint at least. :D :D :D
Kinda like using your own discression.