OMVOC make the local news

[GQJeaper]

Hey everyone, the lobby group that I stated last year has made the paper, unfortunately you can't read the whole article, as its a paid subscription, but this is the headline from their site. I will scan and post up my article, along with a pic of my XJ when I get ahold of a scaner!

Here is a blurb to the link:

http://nnsl.com/newsum.html

scroll down to January 31st date and my blurb is the 8th one down.

I also have the ear of our legislative members and work with them on a day to day basis!

Jeff

[SamiFlyer]

I never knew an Ontario Modified Vehicle Owners Council even existed. Do they have a website? You've sparked my interest Jeff. :)


Sean :cool:

[GQJeaper]

Hey Sean!

PM me your digits and I will call ya and explain in detail. The website is currently being done and will be up within the next 2 weeks.

Its a non profit (Ontario Certified) corporation, our mandate is to perserve the aftermarket industry for all makes and model vehicles, not just lifted 4X4's we will not be working directly with the Ministry of No Results (MNR), but pure political level. We do not provide insurance, but lobby the government to Provide a more fair system for all drivers. There is a membership fee of $30.00 yr for a priemum membership and $10.00 yr for a basic membership.

So far we are at the table with the MTO and Queens Park in Toronto and at the MLA here in the NWT as we just opened up a chapter. We are going to produce results today instead of tomorrow.

PM me Sean and I will let you know more dude!

Jeff

[vanbdan]

let us know when the website is up.

[Lucy]

I'm Very intersted in hearing more about this aswell!

[Mud Lite]

Why didn't you work on this while you were with NL? It would seem that they have the numbers to back this? Who else is working on this with you to meet with Queens Park? Who are you using as a legal firm to represent the Modified Users? What is the outcome that you are looking for? Isn't NL looking at this same thing right now with their Questionaires? Are you looking for Numbers or just members to back you? Wouldn't it be better to get the backing of the manufactureres, aftermarket venders, SEMA, and other association rather than asking trying to get the small numbers by this approach? Even after lobbying support across Canada NL and Upper Canada still only have around 2500 memebers and most of that is outside of Ontarion. I am not trying to shoot down a dream but question the validity of the approach.

[MuddMachine]

I still say aint much gonna happen unless all the wheelers unite under 1 roof.

[Mud Lite]

been there, tried that, moved on!!

[MuddMachine]

I also have the ear of our legislative members and work with them on a day to day basis!

Jeff

Legislative members from where? NWT?

[MuddMachine]

been there, tried that, moved on!!


I know you tried that. You tried it cuz you know it is what we need to make shit happen. Until it happens it's all nothing, but bullshit.

[Mud Lite]

But even if we had one voice in Ontario the number are still piss poor. We would still have less than 1000 offroaders from Ontario.

[MuddMachine]

But even if we had one voice in Ontario the number are still piss poor. We would still have less than 1000 offroaders from Ontario.

Im sure im not the only one that looks at the situation and see's it as a bunch of people with ego's trying to lobby the gov with different groups. If it was all under one roof it would show some organization.

[Mud Lite]

What people have to realize is how to wheel and how to keep the MNR and other land user groups off thier ass. The main thing is OVER USE!!!! J33P owners seem to be the worse for this. Going out every weekend to the same spot untill it gets closed down, then biatching about loosing that spot. Use your heads, know where to wheel, keep impact low, know when to wheel, and when not to!!!!!! The squeeky wheel may win sometimes, but also look at how easy it is to stamp out the little guy ( look at Paragon and they had one hell of a lot of support).

Face it people, we are loosing the battle and no one can do anything about it. We lost the war even before we knew about the battle. The MNR wrote us off back in the 80's.

[Mud Lite]

Im sure im not the only one that looks at the situation and see's it as a bunch of people with ego's trying to lobby the gov with different groups. If it was all under one roof it would show some organization.

We don't lobby so as far as land use is concerned, NL is the organization. Upper Canada provides Liability Insurance to clubs so that they can continue to play on private and crown land without worries. I assume that Jeff is fighting a different battle. Though I am not sure what.

[GQJeaper]

Why didn't you work on this while you were with NL? It would seem that they have the numbers to back this? Who else is working on this with you to meet with Queens Park? Who are you using as a legal firm to represent the Modified Users? What is the outcome that you are looking for? Isn't NL looking at this same thing right now with their Questionaires? Are you looking for Numbers or just members to back you? Wouldn't it be better to get the backing of the manufactureres, aftermarket venders, SEMA, and other association rather than asking trying to get the small numbers by this approach? Even after lobbying support across Canada NL and Upper Canada still only have around 2500 memebers and most of that is outside of Ontarion. I am not trying to shoot down a dream but question the validity of the approach.

Hey ML, here is some information for your questions!

1. Why didn't you work on this while you were with NL?

I was just a board member then and things had to be voted on, some of my ideas where talked about, but the direction in the end was voted by the majority. bottom line though I did speak to MPP's and Government about our concerns while at OF4WD with the help of Mike.

2. Wouldn’t it be better to get the backing of the manufacturers, aftermarket venders, SEMA, and other association rather than asking trying to get the small numbers by this approach?

Yes and No, its called grass route organization, we start at the beginning, to whom it will benefit most, companies come and go, but they are made up of people so its the individual who I want to mentor and help. In time we will get the manufactures on board but that’s over time. I do not want to model the US system, after Paragon it shows you that all their numbers were a lost cause and that living in a Capitalist Democracy can be a bad thing.

3. Who are you using as a legal firm to represent the Modified Users?

This is under review at the board level still; we have a paralegal working with us, and most likely by spring will be represented by council. I however worked for the House of Commons and have Parliamentary experience, so I do have credibility in gov't

4. Isn't NL looking at this same thing right now with their Questionnaires?

I do not know. I am no longer apart of OF4WD so you would have to ask Mike what their approach is.

5. Even after lobbying support across Canada NL and Upper Canada still only have around 2500 members and most of that is outside of Ontario. I am not trying to shoot down a dream but question the validity of the approach.

I am not just trying to get the off roaders on board but all modified vehicle owners, if you vote and stand there with you own special interest you will get what you deserve, all car and truck owners are in the same boat at the end of the day, you cannot get success by peacmealing together certain parts of the industry for support, it has to be all or nothing, we will support and lobby for the Tuner, Classic Car enthusiasts and yes us the 4x4; with numbers the government will stand up and take notice. One day at a time!

Hope this helps out, if not PM or post more q's and I will do my a's!

Jeff

[GQJeaper]

Legislative members from where? NWT?

Yes I am in contact with both MLA (Member of Legislative Assembly's here in the NWT) and MPP's (Member of Provincial Parliament in Ontario)

Jeff

[SamiFlyer]

What people have to realize is how to wheel and how to keep the MNR and other land user groups off thier ass.
The MNR merely enforces laws. This council, as I understand it, will not be dealing with the MNR. They will be lobbying the people who make the laws that the MNR enforces.

Don't get me wrong, we all need to wheel responsibly but that kind of education should be administered at the club level. If you don't tell the guys in your club what is right and what is wrong, how are they going to change their habits? But that is not the approach this organization is taking.

As I understand it, NL spends a major portion of its funding on Camp NL and trail cleanups. This gives them exposure and promotes a good image for wheelers but it does nothing to help us where our insurance is concerned. You say Upper Canada insures you through your club but has anybody ever put a claim through? I talked with Mike Fedeshyn about this and he was not looking forward to the day a claim would have to be put through. I have since learned that if a claim was brought up, Upper Canada would urge the claimant to go through their current insurance. If your claim gets denied there, guess what? There is a more than likely chance that your trail coverage will be denied as well. Go ahead and communicate with your ins. co. and find out for yourself. You'll be thoroughly frustrated and disgusted by the time you are done arguing with them! And keep in mind this applies if you have a stock truck with proper insurance. Care to try and guess what would happen with a modified truck (lift kit, big tires, some homemade components) or better yet a non-licensed, uninsured buggy? You can be as polite as possible and be treading as lightly as a bunny but you are at the discretion of the MNR or local police force if you are stopped anywhere but on private property. Actually that's not true, as a Conservation Officer can still cite you on your own property if you are doing something environmentally harmful.

Let's get real "modified vehicle" insurance for our 4x4s at a reasonable price and change some of the outdated or restrictive laws that affect our enjoyment of off-road activities. We can't do that by merely treading lightly and hoping we don't see any MNR on the trails.


Sean :cool:

[SamiFlyer]

But even if we had one voice in Ontario the number are still piss poor. We would still have less than 1000 offroaders from Ontario.

We have to start somewhere.


Sean :cool:

[SamiFlyer]

Im sure im not the only one that looks at the situation and see's it as a bunch of people with ego's trying to lobby the gov with different groups. If it was all under one roof it would show some organization.

That is the reason we need to join and support this organization. It is the 1 "roof" that is addressing our problems at the source.


Sean :cool:

[GQJeaper]

Hey Guys..

Just a few more notes, as to what Sean said, he is 100% right. OMVOC is taking a totally different approach.

Its like that 3M commercial:

We do not supply your insurance, but we make insurance avalible to you, we do not operate the trails, but we do keep the trials open. We do not modify your vehicle for you, but keep the modifications on your ride. In a nutshell that is what we are trying to accomplish.

OMVOC will not be pursuing private-for-profit land agreements. This is OUR land and it should be avalible for us to enjoy. Going furthur on that note, what good is the land if we cannot get proper insurance for our 4x4's? and why do we have to get hammerd with high rates?

I find it funny that some groups are offering trail insurance to vehicles that are not fully disclosing any mods to thier insurance companies, or maybe they do not even have insurance at all? who know? I just do not want our organization to be apart of a mess that is just waiting to happen. Nor do I want to feed insurance companies ANY MORE OF OUR HARD EARNED MONEY!! enough is enough, I will even back public auto insurance if the details are benifical to the general driving public!

Jeff

[Mud Lite]

That is the reason we need to join and support this organization. It is the 1 "roof" that is addressing our problems at the source.


Sean :cool:

Why start at the begining again? NL has been around for 8 -10 years now. They already have the contacts, the membership, the backing, the manpower. Why dilute it any further?

Upper Canada can not refuse your claim as we are a non profit 4WD Assoc. It is up to Jones Brown to acept the claim or not. Jones brown is quite aware of our sport and our mods. They have been to the ORCC more than once and have seen what we are all about. I have had lunch with one of the partners and have gone into quit a bit of depth of what we are all about. We don't insure your trucks. We insure YOU. This is liability insurance for clubs so that they can hold events on crown land, run trails on private land, have show n shines in the local Canadian Tire parking lot , without worrying about loosing their houses and every thing they have worked for uo to know and in the future. If you have a fender bender into a tree suck it up butter cup. It is the cost of the sport. If you roll over and break your back, then Jones Brown is there to cover the liability of the accident.

Though I have not spoken to Mike at NL I am aware that they are trying to look into vehicle coverage for Modified Vehicles. Isn't this the same thing that OMVOC is trying to do?

Maybe tell us why you left NL Jeff? Are they just catching on to your idea now, or has it been in the talks for a while? I just don't understand why you would split off and shortly after double up on thier work.

I don't believe what I have written!! Did I just back what NL is doing? I must be tired....LOL

[GQJeaper]

Why start at the begining again? NL has been around for 8 -10 years now. They already have the contacts, the membership, the backing, the manpower. Why dilute it any further?

Upper Canada can not refuse your claim as we are a non profit 4WD Assoc. It is up to Jones Brown to acept the claim or not. Jones brown is quite aware of our sport and our mods. They have been to the ORCC more than once and have seen what we are all about. I have had lunch with one of the partners and have gone into quit a bit of depth of what we are all about. We don't insure your trucks. We insure YOU. This is liability insurance for clubs so that they can hold events on crown land, run trails on private land, have show n shines in the local Canadian Tire parking lot , without worrying about loosing their houses and every thing they have worked for uo to know and in the future. If you have a fender bender into a tree suck it up butter cup. It is the cost of the sport. If you roll over and break your back, then Jones Brown is there to cover the liability of the accident.

Though I have not spoken to Mike at NL I am aware that they are trying to look into vehicle coverage for Modified Vehicles. Isn't this the same thing that OMVOC is trying to do?

Maybe tell us why you left NL Jeff? Are they just catching on to your idea now, or has it been in the talks for a while? I just don't understand why you would split off and shortly after double up on thier work.

Just for information :

Lloyds of London
l
Jones Brown
l l
NL Upper Canada
l l
Clubs Clubs
l l
Memebrs Members

1.Why start at the begining again? NL has been around for 8 -10 years now. They already have the contacts, the membership, the backing, the manpower. Why dilute it any further?

OMVOC's mandate is much different then thier's and yours I feel that a new direction is what is needed to be truly effective, right now everyone in the off roading world has a grim hope for the future.

2.Upper Canada can not refuse your claim as we are a non profit 4WD Assoc. It is up to Jones Brown to acept the claim or not. Jones brown is quite aware of our sport and our mods. They have been to the ORCC more than once and have seen what we are all about. I have had lunch with one of the partners and have gone into quit a bit of depth of what we are all about. We don't insure your trucks. We insure YOU. This is liability insurance for clubs so that they can hold events on crown land, run trails on private land, have show n shines in the local Canadian Tire parking lot , without worrying about loosing their houses and every thing they have worked for uo to know and in the future. If you have a fender bender into a tree suck it up butter cup. It is the cost of the sport. If you roll over and break your back, then Jones Brown is there to cover the liability of the accident.

I am not wasting my time with insurance details, all I know is that we are getting raped over and over and over again, nobody understands it, Ontario is the biggest rip off in the Dominion of Canada for insurance and most people modding up thier rides do not disclose thier modifications, weather they are street legal or not. This is why a public auto insurance system needs to be investigated and implemented, I just want a fair premium for far coverage, no BS, no extra crap, no more confustion, off road insurance is a load of garbage in my opinion.

3.Though I have not spoken to Mike at NL I am aware that they are trying to look into vehicle coverage for Modified Vehicles. Isn't this the same thing that OMVOC is trying to do?

No, not that I am aware of, I want to revamp the whole industry from the beginning not just for our lifted off roaders.

4.Maybe tell us why you left NL Jeff? Are they just catching on to your idea now, or has it been in the talks for a while? I just don't understand why you would split off and shortly after double up on thier work.

I was ill, and since now moving to the NWT I wanted to go National and INDUSTRY WIDE, not specail interest for a segment in the market.

I got big fish to fry and I can guearantee you this, you will see action where others have failed I can assure you that!

Jeff

[SamiFlyer]

Upper Canada can not refuse your claim as we are a non profit 4WD Assoc.

Am I a member of Upper Canada? Who insures me for liability?


Sean :cool:

[Mud Lite]

off road insurance is a load of garbage in my opinion.




How can you say that? What protection does a club have? What protection does the exec. of a club have? If I organized an event and soemone was killed, who would the insurance company come after? If little Johnny was running through camp and fell into a fire, who would the families insurance come after?

We are comparing apples to oranges here!!! You want insurance for the individual. NL and UC4WDA cover our clubs, club members, spectators, workers, land owners....etc. for what? 8.00 per person for 2,000,000.00 in liability.

[Mud Lite]

Am I a member of Upper Canada? Who insures me for liability?


Sean :cool:

All it takes is to join a club that is associated with Upper Canada, or join NL as an Individual member. If Zook Power wants insurance then I can work something out. But that will have to be up to MM. I personally have worked a long time for what I have and don't want to loose it all because some drunken a-hole drove off a cliff and left a family of 6 to care for. For 8.00 I can sleep well at night and not worry that Depot is gaurenteed to roll at SuziCan. Do you think there would be SuziCan if there was no OFF ROAD insurance? Maybe on someone elses shift!!!

[SamiFlyer]

What protection does a club have?
Nobody is talking about creating a new club that insures people.


We are comparing apples to oranges here!!! You want insurance for the individual.
Exactly! I don't see why you would get all bent out of shape about it and shoot it down?


NL and UC4WDA cover our clubs, club members, spectators, workers, land owners....etc. for what? 8.00 per person for 2,000,000.00 in liability.
Again. I am NOT a member of UC4WD or NL. Who insures me for liability?


Sean :cool:

[SamiFlyer]

All it takes is to join a club that is associated with Upper Canada, or join NL as an Individual member.

Why? I demand that the auto insurance I ALREADY pay for to cover me. That is what I am after.


Sean :cool:

[Mud Lite]

I am not bashing the idea, I was just asking questions to understand the difference between what NL is doing and Jeff. After that I have been trying to make sure people understand that we are talking about different types of insurance. if you want personal Liability, then you have auto insurance to cover this. This is not what Upper Canda covers, so please don't bring us into this conversation. I carry my car and truck insurnace with a seperate company. They are aware of my modifications and know what the vehicle is used for and how little it is used. I cover my club and members with OFF ROAD insurance so that they don't ALL loose everything when little Johnny burns to death in the camp fire while his parents are not looking.

Do you understand the difference? Offroad insurance does not cover you on road or for fire and theft.

[SamiFlyer]

Do you understand the difference? Offroad insurance does not cover you on road or for fire and theft.
I understand the difference perfectly. Perhaps you are not understanding my point. I want my insurance to cover me no matter what I am doing with my vehicle, on or off-road.

I don't see why we are butting heads. We are not talking about the same thing and we agree we are not talking about the same thing. :roll:

Sean :cool:

[SamiFlyer]

And furthermore, if I want to go to Suzican and your insurance is mandatory and part of the entry fee, I have no problem with that. I just want to be covered when I am not taking part in any club-type event and my belief is that my insurance company should be able to provide it to me at a fair and reasonable cost.


Sean :cool:

[Depot]

...I want my insurance to cover me no matter what I am doing with my vehicle, on or off-road.....

my belief is that my insurance company should be able to provide it to me at a fair and reasonable cost.


Sean :cool:



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That has to be the stupidest thing Ive heard all year (granted the year just started but still) U want someone to insure ur vehicle and ur life and public liability no matter what u do with it or how u modify it????

Fk me.. that is just soo stupid i cant even respond :rant:

I'll think of somehting l8r when I stop laughing so much

D

[Mud Lite]

What is fair and reasonable cost? I pay 400.00 per year for the Zuk and about the same for the Flattie ( and I have full coverage on the flattie). I just have liability on the Zuk.

[SamiFlyer]

Fk me.. that is just soo stupid i cant even respond :rant:

I'll think of somehting l8r when I stop laughing so much

D

Don't bother. If that's the childish close-minded approach you are going to take you can keep your response to yourself. :thefinger


Sean :cool:

[SamiFlyer]

What is fair and reasonable cost? I pay 400.00 per year for the Zuk and about the same for the Flattie ( and I have full coverage on the flattie). I just have liability on the Zuk.

If UC4WD can charge 8$ per person for the off-road liability coverage, why couldn't my auto insurance do the same? It can be separate coverage that can be waived. I don't think that one plan would serve everybody and you could choose to be covered for more through increased premiums. The point is that it should be available.


Sean :cool:

[Mud Lite]

Have you talked to your insurance company? Are you sure they do not cover you offroad? What coverage do you have now? What do you pay? There are companies out there that do modified insurance. And if I am not mistaken the Ralley guys tried to get thier own insurance but didn't hear back if they were sucessfull or not.

So who do you fight in this case? The broker? In the insurance company? or the three companies that own it ALL?????????? Big buisness will laugh it this. Why are rates higher in Ontario? We have more people here than anywhere else. We also have a larger Asian population......do I need to say more?

[Depot]

Individual off-road insurance IS available!! BUT!!!! and u know theres a but... its is int he faclity market which means ur premiums start at 5 G's and up and up... with tons of requirements like certificate of mechancal fitness and appraisals of ur rig just to name a few...

Think about it from the insurance co's point of view...

• there isnt that big a market in Ontario to warant such a specified market.
• given the huge diversity in types of vehicles, modifications to such vehicles, qaulifications of the ppl doing such mods how do u even start to asses RISK? and we all know premiums are based on risk assesment.
• look at the "image" of off-roading.. bunch of drunken hillbillies out there smashing their rigs up... yah, i really wanna insure u now.
• off-road vehicles are not cheap so replacement cost for theft/damage is almost impossible to determine without regular appraisals and guess who will have to pay for those..
• what kinda safety features are in our rigs and who's making sure they are there and being used properly? how many of us are out there still wheeling and even rolling our rigs without a roll cage???? now how bout a rll cage thats been welded by a certified welder and not a home jobbie??? everything u buy today as far as cars, trucks, atv etc is welded by a certified welder wether it be a man or machine.. so the ins company knows that the weld wont break and cause death or injury... who can say the same with paper to back em up bout their rig even with a certificate of mechanical fitness???

now lets take this unregulated, home build catagory with all these unknowns and risk factors and lets put em on the road with on-road vehicles even if its just to cross a hi-way.. I think not... at least atv's and snwsleds are built to certain standards and have a certain level of reliability assured in em when they are built/purchased.... can u say the same about ur rigs?

u want a fair price? what do u call a fair price when u sit back and really look at all the risks associated with what were doing???

this is an unregulated area. most our rigs are home build by novices with minimal and substandard safety precautions. now lets go climb up the side of a mountain pushing our rigs past their limits and se what breaks first.

so now, whats ur fair price???? please! u cant group all off-roaders together and say gimme a fair price.. thats just stupid. There is such a huge variety amongst us, its naive to think this insurance issue is easy to solve.

D

[SamiFlyer]

Have you talked to your insurance company? Are you sure they do not cover you offroad? What coverage do you have now? What do you pay? There are companies out there that do modified insurance. And if I am not mistaken the Ralley guys tried to get thier own insurance but didn't hear back if they were sucessfull or not.

So who do you fight in this case? The broker? In the insurance company? or the three companies that own it ALL?????????? Big buisness will laugh it this. Why are rates higher in Ontario? We have more people here than anywhere else. We also have a larger Asian population......do I need to say more?

I cringe at the thought of calling my insurance. My truck started life as an IFS Toyota. Now it's a solid axle Toyota. It used to have an auto, now it's a manual. It's on it's 4rth engine. It has 35" Rubber on it with welded differentials. My broker would blow a fuse and drop me before I even got past telling him about the SAS!

I have reasonable rates, or so I thought until I researched what other similar people are paying in other provinces. Still though, I budget around what my insurance costs me and it might not have to be lower if it just covered more and allowed for some of the extreme modifications we do. I wouldn't even be opposed to having a mandatory re-certification of my vehicle for some of the modifications such as a SAS. At least then you know your truck is safe and the ins. co. can rest easy that they are not insuring an accident waiting to happen.

Sean :cool:

[Depot]

As far as group insurance goes... this insurance only covers group event. it doesnt cover me when i cross a hi-way or when i go wheeling by myself. It doesnt cover my truck for theft, fire damage, nuthing. all it covers is public liability and personal injury. now being said it covers events, there is an implied organization here, someone in charge, someone that makes sure ppl arent drinking on the trails, some to make sure ppl are doing stupid shit.

There is a big difference in off-roading in general and going to an "event".

and I guarantee u that if something happened at an event and a claim is made for something serious... there will be an investigation into the event and more specifically in to the event organizer and if they find the organizer was negligent.. guess whos sharing responsibility in paying the claim and/or criminal charges!

group insurance has nothing to do with individual insurance that the law dictates we must have on our rigs and the same rules do not apply.

the law says we must have insurance... there is no changing that law. u can cry to queens park or parliment or ur mommy u aint gonna change that law.

if u want insurance.. figure a way to get some.. figure a way to assess risk for each vehicle... figure a way of making it profitable for the ins co's cause u know they aint gonna do it otherwise.. get past all those hurdles and present it to an ins company... then maybe if u have enough #'s.. u can create a market.

gl

D

[SamiFlyer]

Individual off-road insurance IS available!! BUT!!!! and u know theres a but... its is int he faclity market which means ur premiums start at 5 G's and up and up... with tons of requirements like certificate of mechancal fitness and appraisals of ur rig just to name a few...

Think about it from the insurance co's point of view...

• there isnt that big a market in Ontario to warant such a specified market.
• given the huge diversity in types of vehicles, modifications to such vehicles, qaulifications of the ppl doing such mods how do u even start to asses RISK? and we all know premiums are based on risk assesment.
• look at the "image" of off-roading.. bunch of drunken hillbillies out there smashing their rigs up... yah, i really wanna insure u now.
• off-road vehicles are not cheap so replacement cost for theft/damage is almost impossible to determine without regular appraisals and guess who will have to pay for those..
• what kinda safety features are in our rigs and who's making sure they are there and being used properly? how many of us are out there still wheeling and even rolling our rigs without a roll cage???? now how bout a rll cage thats been welded by a certified welder and not a home jobbie??? everything u buy today as far as cars, trucks, atv etc is welded by a certified welder wether it be a man or machine.. so the ins company knows that the weld wont break and cause death or injury... who can say the same with paper to back em up bout their rig even with a certificate of mechanical fitness???

now lets take this unregulated, home build catagory with all these unknowns and risk factors and lets put em on the road with on-road vehicles even if its just to cross a hi-way.. I think not... at least atv's and snwsleds are built to certain standards and have a certain level of reliability assured in em when they are built/purchased.... can u say the same about ur rigs?

u want a fair price? what do u call a fair price when u sit back and really look at all the risks associated with what were doing???

this is an unregulated area. most our rigs are home build by novices with minimal and substandard safety precautions. now lets go climb up the side of a mountain pushing our rigs past their limits and se what breaks first.

so now, whats ur fair price???? please! u cant group all off-roaders together and say gimme a fair price.. thats just stupid. There is such a huge variety amongst us, its naive to think this insurance issue is easy to solve.

D

So you just want to quit? Just say fawk it and that's it? I find your stance pretty ironic considering that at any given event, you are quite possibly the one that requires the most liability insurance! :thefinger


Sean :cool:

[Mud Lite]

Plus I don't understand why putting all modified users into one group will help. I would rather stay away from the tuner crowd. I don't know many offroaders that have died offroading. I sure a hell know a bunch of tuners that have tuned out.

[SamiFlyer]

Plus I don't understand why putting all modified users into one group will help. I would rather stay away from the tuner crowd. I don't know many offroaders that have died offroading. I sure a hell know a bunch of tuners that have tuned out.

Because they have similar challenges as far as insurance goes. Does it not make sense to have one large group rather than many small ones fighting for the same thing? Wasn't this one of the first concerns to be brought up?


Sean :cool:

[Depot]

So you just want to quit? Just say fawk it and that's it? I find your stance pretty ironic considering that at any given event, you are quite possibly the one that requires the most liability insurance! :thefinger


Sean :cool:


A - im not gonan argue with ur last statement as its prolly true.
b - i never said I wanted to quit. my whole tyraid was on the stupidity of ur comment.. u want ur car insurance cmpany to do what?????? and at a fair price????? That kinda talk is dangerous. ur asking for somehting tahts not gonna happen like that and taking away any chance of finding other solutions by asking for such stupid things.

i simply listed some obstacles and some things I thought are required to get us past this ins crapshoot. The whole point being.... REALIZE first of all what it is ur asking for and what the challanges in getting it are.

i know all of this cause i have done the legwork, i have called ins companies an have gotten quotes and jumped through their hoops ONLY to find that it was cost prohibative for me to carry forward.

u say ur willing to recertify ur vehicle whenever neccesary?? ok.. how bout a charge of 200 bucks after every single trip u take ur truck out on??? cause god knows no-one will certify ur truck to last forever. ur gonna want to get it recertified everysingle time u doing the slightest mod to it??

i bet ud stop recertifying it real fast at that rate. thereby violating the terms of ur insurance and voila.. there u r in the same boat u r today.. with no valid insurace.

D

[Depot]

This kills me... u can not group us all together.... each group poses unique challanges to the insurance industry. Packing us all together gives u #'s but just goes on to further complicate the whole mess buy introducing so many more and different variables.

D

[SamiFlyer]

This kills me... u can not group us all together.... each group poses unique challanges to the insurance industry. Packing us all together gives u #'s but just goes on to further complicate the whole mess buy introducing so many more and different variables.

D

Fine. Bye John.


Sean :cool:

[Lucy]

It's not that complicated :think: ........ The law requires you to have insurance, there are laws that dictate what can be legally driven on the streets and highways therefore if you have a vehicle that abides by the laws and is legal for the road you should be provided with reasonable insurance options. Not be told by insurance companies that they refuse to provide required insurance on a legal vehicle cause they don't wanna. Offroad insurance is a whole separate issue that needs to be addressed , but still not that complicated if they can insure ATV's they can insure trucks that are legal for the street and if they can make up standard safety laws for ATV's they can make laws for buggies!
It really is that simple!

The insurance companies have been bending us over for years , now our sport is being push to the point of oblivion due to a pencil pushers technicality , it sux and it's wrong. Fortunately we live a country where if you see something wrong you can fight against it, and if you do it right sometime you can make things change. Do you think this country would be what it is if everyone just sat back and said don't bother we can't doing anything about it? Personally I'm not into the idea of sitting back getting bent over and doing what I'm told , so I'm behind anyone who wants to truly pull it together and and at least not go down without a fight.

[GQJeaper]

Wow that was alot to take in for a response, but I will give it my best.

OMVOC's stand on insurance is that it is too complicated and nobody really understands the concept of it, or can PROPERLY read their policy and what it really means. OMVOC is lobbying to fix this so that the average layman can understand what they have. Right now they need a law degree to even open the damn envelope! I find it funny that I can restore a classic car, hack it up , do this and that to it, get it appraised and get a DISCOUNT on it cause its a classic! The insurance companies get it APPRAISED at a REASONALBE value and base your premiums on that VALUE! If they can work this out and have a booming business for the classic car lover, there is no dought in my mind that it can work for the rest of the modified car industry. The insurance companies love to play "what if's" with us.

Second, don't discriminate ML, you do not have any facts on death due to the "TUNER" world, you were not at the Meeting on Nov26th 2006 with Minister Donna Cansfield, MTO or OPP. OMVOC was. We are the ONLY association that is in CONSTANT contact with all levels of government on a weekly basis. Do not pit any form of recreation against another, it’s not professional.

I cam type more if needed, we just need to chill, while we are playing on the keyboard arguing with each other, insurance companies are canceling drivers, raising our rates and closing down trails, I will be working on what I started so that threads like these will one day be a thing of the past. I want to be out there with people like Sean, so I can wade through water to hook my **** up and have a great afternoon of wheelin' cause that’s why I bought my **** for, not to stress me out or make me angry at the system.

Jeff:)

[Mud Lite]

I find it funny that I can restore a classic car, hack it up , do this and that to it, get it appraised and get a DISCOUNT on it cause its a classic! The insurance companies get it APPRAISED at a REASONALBE value and base your premiums on that VALUE! If they can work this out and have a booming business for the classic car lover, there is no dought in my mind that it can work for the rest of the modified car industry. The insurance companies love to play "what if's" with us.



I think they do! If you were to have two vehicles and one was modified and used only on weekends and the other was a DD, then the rates on the modified vehicle would be LOW. We can't have our cake and eat it too!! LOL.
If you want to use your Modified vehicle as a DD then you will pay big bucks to do so because your liability has increased. Tell me why a 2 Dr red Civic cost more than a 4dr green civic wagon?





Second, don't discriminate ML, you do not have any facts on death due to the "TUNER" world, you were not at the Meeting on Nov26th 2006 with Minister Donna Cansfield, MTO or OPP. OMVOC was. We are the ONLY association that is in CONSTANT contact with all levels of government on a weekly basis. Do not pit any form of recreation against another, it’s not professional.



First off try to understand the difference between fighting and debating. Second I am not discriminating, nor being unprofesional. I personally have not lost any friends or collegues to an offroad accident. I have on the otherhand lost too many to road racing tuners. And yes I klnow the difference between a tuner and a street racer. ( very little in my books). What came of this meeting? What facts do you have? How many deaths were there due to Tuners or street racing in 2006? An insurance agent will not know the difference between them.

My point is there are companies out there willing to insure modified vehicles. There are also ways to get reasonable rates. I am also not questioning what you are doing, I am only questioning the way it is organized. Wouldn't it be better to represent organizations like NL, UC, Ralley Canada, Hot Rod Association......etc? I would think you would have larger numbers.

[TheSarg]

To clear a few issues up:


The law requires you to have insurance, there are laws that dictate what can be legally driven on the streets and highways therefore if you have a vehicle that abides by the laws and is legal for the road you should be provided with reasonable insurance options. Not be told by insurance companies that they refuse to provide required insurance on a legal vehicle cause they don't wanna.

Every insurance company in Ontario is required by law to supply insurance to everyone, the way they get around it is by giving u a rediculous price that you refuse to pay. If u do come across an insurance company that plain out refuses your business then persue it as its the law for them to.

Insurance Companies, altho corrupt and injust...base the rate of insurance upon the level of risk. Pre-exsisting variables dictate how much and to whom. As much as i dislike it the Pope himself couldnt persuade an insurance company to insure and offroad vehicle "for a fair price" based on it's level of risk.

The club i belong to is with Upper Canada and i thank Mud Lite for providing that as an option.

I think GQ can and will do great things for our sport, he is a go getter with contacts and influences that will benefit the offroaders. However, i must say in my own personal opinion, i dislike being "grouped" with anything not relating to offroad. Offroading is more family oriented, and the age range is substantial. Tunerz and other groups have thier own demographics that in no way reflect myself, my peers or our sport as a whole.

I think there would be more progress if the scope wasnt so broadened.

[GQJeaper]

On that note I think we all aired out where some of us stand.

Its a choice that we must make on what our beliefs are and what direction we feel is more more value added.

I still stand on my record and if anyone has any questions or comments or concerns, I will talk with you anyway you like, even a phone call from up here in the Arctic.

I do not want to fight or make enimies within our sport or industry as a whole. We all have valuable things offer the community in which we choose to participate in.

I will be working on my website this week and organizing other venues as well, so in time you will see me less and less on these boards, feel free to PM me or email me as I will respond.

Thanks for all the comments and point of views, they are building blocks that one can consider when making decisions.

Take Care, Jeff

[Lucy]

I think they do! If you were to have two vehicles and one was modified and used only on weekends and the other was a DD, then the rates on the modified vehicle would be LOW. We can't have our cake and eat it too!! LOL.


Lucy isn't my DD , she is my occasional use weekender , The only company I can get coverage from is Dominion and they are nicking me $100.00 more for just liability then I pay for full coverage (through my other broker) on my DD Kick........so as for having our cake and eating it too, I think someone forgot my icing! lol

The real kicker is that if I were to get liability on on my DD kick through Dominion I would pay the same thing they are charging me for Lucy. So it's not that they are nicking me a higher rate for my moded truck it's that they are the only ones who will cover me.

[Lucy]

To clear a few issues up:



Every insurance company in Ontario is required by law to supply insurance to everyone, the way they get around it is by giving u a rediculous price that you refuse to pay. If u do come across an insurance company that plain out refuses your business then persue it as its the law for them to.


Personally I have been flat out refused by more companies then I can recall,and several of my friends have had the same problem. Also the insurance company didn't even care what had been done to the truck, never got that far ...they ask "is the vehicle modified in any way" you say "yes" and they flat out say "well then no we wont/can't give you coverage". So ,if legally they can't do this, how exactly does one go after an insurance company for refusing you insurance? Who do you complain to? (just curious)




The club i belong to is with Upper Canada and i thank Mud Lite for providing that as an option.

I think GQ can and will do great things for our sport, he is a go getter with contacts and influences that will benefit the offroaders. However, i must say in my own personal opinion, i dislike being "grouped" with anything not relating to offroad. Offroading is more family oriented, and the age range is substantial. Tunerz and other groups have thier own demographics that in no way reflect myself, my peers or our sport as a whole.

I think there would be more progress if the scope wasnt so broadened.

I to think what Mudlite has been doing and is providing is a really excellent thing, and I too thank him for doing it. Unfortunately for alot of us there is more that needs to be done , I don't like the idea of being lumped in with tuners anymore then you do ,but I do feel that if we want a real long term solution to these issues it's not the insurance companies we have to deal with, we need to deal with government and government as we all know is ruled by numbers and money. So I think we may have to become a common voice with other groups that share our concerns when dealing with the government. On insurance unfortunately it's the tuners , but also the hot rods , dune buggies ect. With land use it's the ATV and (dare I say) Snowmachine groups. In the end we don't have to like each other but we are all affected by the same problem and I personally feel if we don't work together to solve the problem we will be unwillingly united in a common loss. Like it or not we are all in the same boat , The way I see it, might as well paddle together.

[Depot]

Also the insurance company didn't even care what had been done to the truck, never got that far ...they ask "is the vehicle modified in any way" you say "yes" and they flat out say "well then no we wont/can't give you coverage". So ,if legally they can't do this, how exactly does one go after an insurance company for refusing you insurance? Who do you complain to? (just curious)

With land use it's the ATV and (dare I say) Snowmachine groups. In the end we don't have to like each other but we are all affected by the same problem and I personally feel if we don't work together to solve the problem we will be unwillingly united in a common loss. Like it or not we are all in the same boat , The way I see it, might as well paddle together.


The law states in essence that no matter how bad a driver - u can always get insurance - hence the facility market. There is no law demanding that insurance compaies must provide insurance to modified vehicles in an unregulated market like ours.. This is how they can say no. Also, many insurance companies simply do not offer he Facility market - again the law says someone must provide insurance for the high risk drivers... not every company. This is how they can say "no".

I undrstand and agree with grouping us all together when it comes to Land Use Issues. but the last time I checked, If I bought an atv or snowmobile I could get insurance a phone call away from dozens of companies. These are regulated markets with standards, statistics and risk assesments to back em up. This is where I feel the problem lies in the off-road market... not enough ppl yet and no stats, regulations or risk assesment.

lets say for shits ang giggles the gov't stepped in and regulated this off-road market... for exampl, semi-anual safety inspections, pollution control, limits on tire sizes, motor sizes, gross vehicle weights, restrictions on modifications, Lisencing (and not just a G'class liscence), fees, time and place regulations, limits on # of vehicles just to name a few.... well now then, were starting a regulate market with clear rules that can be enforced and tracked. Now insurance companies just mite be more inclined to create such an insurance market... if u break the regulated rules, ur insurance is null and void and their risk is 0.

We have to keep in mind how insurance works - Risk aassesment - I'll say this 1000 times over if I have to. In an unregulated market where any tom dick or harry can do anything to their vehicle and no-one is the wiser, the only way to asses the risk is on an individual basis. guess what??? ur gonne be paying up the ass for that now.

but if we had classes of off-road vehicles, now the risk can be grouped into catagories with different premiums for each catagory.

Ins companies base their premiums on known factors....
•initial cost of vehicle - there are stipulated specific limits on add-ons like stereos jus to limit their risk.
•Motor size - if u buy a car and slam a V8 in her and dont tell ur ins co.. ur not insured - their rates are based on stock vehicles that they have stats for.
• Age - the younger u r the more u pay - fact of life
• Statistics - certain vehicles are more prone to theft, accidents (due to speeds or type of ppl buying em) for example, kids like the mustangs.. why? cause they got some power and can move - not cause their practical. as a result, these kids are gonna get into mre accidents cause their kids and cause they bought a vehicle with mor balls than a little suzuki.

can u see whre Im goign with this.. off-road market doesnt exist simple cause its not regulated, no statitistics and no enforcemnt.

If u want insurance, and u want a leg to stand on for land issues.. get the market regulated.. show the govt just how much $$ they can make if they did so. Then the insurance will follow suit...

hmm.. i dont think I hear anyone jumping at this idea.. kinda sucks dont it?

D

[SamiFlyer]

i dont think I hear anyone jumping at this idea..

D
Now that you've finally caught up to speed on what the OMVOC is trying to accomplish, are you going to lend your support or just keep wishing something will be done? And don't give us any bullshit about if you think it is possible or not. Sometimes you just have to have faith. Despite what I thought about the Paragon situation, I still put my name down on that petition and I asked how I could help. Just because I didn't see a clear solution, didn't mean nobody else did also.


Sean :cool:

[Depot]

Now that you've finally caught up to speed on what the OMVOC is trying to accomplish, are you going to lend your support or just keep wishing something will be done? And don't give us any bullshit about if you think it is possible or not. Sometimes you just have to have faith. Despite what I thought about the Paragon situation, I still put my name down on that petition and I asked how I could help. Just because I didn't see a clear solution, didn't mean nobody else did also.

Sean :cool:


Are u seriously sitting there telling me that this is what OMVOC is trying to do? They are trying to get the govt to step in, take charge, regulate, manage and charge us to off-road with legislation? This is not the way Im nderstanding what OMVOC wants to do. So no, i sure as hell aint caught upto speed as to what exactly they are doing!

So what exactly is OMVOC trying to do and how do they plan on doing it.. lets see some specifics.. not just blurbs.

Now lets get 1 thing straight here... I didnt start by attacking OMVOC or what its trying to do... I attacked the shear stupidity of ur comment - wnating ur car insurance to cover u no matter what u drive and no matter where u drive it. U wanna sit here and lecture me about wishing - ur statemnt was a wish - right up there with peace on earth and free energy.

Anything is possible - what price are u willing to pay for it? u want insurance - its out there - expensive as hell but hey.. its there. Wheeling is an expensive sport - so y not the insurance?

For the record, i too signed that paragon petition knowing full well it was futile but i tried. Im here to help and support the off-road market as much as u r.. but i sure as hell aint here to agree with stupidity, wishes or solutions that are unreasonable and/or impossible.

u wanan do somethign about the situation.. u have to listen to everyone involved whether u like them or not and whether u like what their saying or not. That means u'll have to listen to what Im saying cause u and I both know, Ive made valid and important points that cannot be ignored by wishing and dreaming.

D

[Lucy]

I undrstand and agree with grouping us all together when it comes to Land Use Issues. but the last time I checked, If I bought an atv or snowmobile I could get insurance a phone call away from dozens of companies. These are regulated markets with standards, statistics and risk assesments to back em up. This is where I feel the problem lies in the off-road market... not enough ppl yet and no stats, regulations or risk assesment.
D

Land Use and and insurance are 2 different issues, you can't attack both in the same breath muddy them up together and expect anything to get done about either one. i.e. Easily excessable insurance isn't going to matter a damn if they have no trails to ride.




can u see whre Im goign with this.. off-road market doesnt exist simple cause its not regulated, no statitistics and no enforcemnt.

If u want insurance, and u want a leg to stand on for land issues.. get the market regulated.. show the govt just how much $$ they can make if they did so. Then the insurance will follow suit...

hmm.. i dont think I hear anyone jumping at this idea.. kinda sucks dont it?

D

Well the snowmachine and ATV markets were unregulated at one time too. Point being if we hope to continue to have a sport to bicker about something has to change and I wouldn't be surprised at all if a regulated market is the direction it takes. This is truly where we can't have our cake and eat it to , If we want to keep our trucks and keep wheeling we need to deal with the reality that we cant keep going unnoticed , flying under the radar and jumping through loopholes as it's the same kind of loopholes in the regulations that are now screwing us. We are being excluded because no one ever made laws pertaining to us. Eventually the law will end up covering us, now it's our choice as to weather we get involved and have some sway and a say in the laws that affect us . The air in the wheeling community seems to be one of "sshhh stay quiet and they wont notice us" we are afraid if we get the attention of the government that they will just shut us down cold. The day is coming when they are going to notice us no matter how stealthy we are , it's already started and I'd rather it was a group of us going to them saying here we are we have number deal with us rather then the likely alternative which is to be at the mercy of people who know nothing of us or our sport reacting to the hysterical relatives of some guy who killed himself rolling his truck in a fit of stupidity. My point is if we are not preemptive and stand up and say here we are this is what we are about in a positive light ,we will end up getting painting with one brush by the first thing that catches the law makers attention and history dictates dead people and crying relatives tend to get a good strong knee jerk reaction.

We can talk bout the in's and out's of bureaucracy ,bitch and moan about the pencil pusher and their red tape all day but that wont change anything. Like it or not we have a system in the country and even though it sux you have to work within the system and use it to your advantage to get anything accomplished. All I'm trying to say is sitting around pointing out all the technicalities and complications will accomplish nothing. Either you want it to charge or you don't ,and thing only change if you stand up, speak up and make it happen!



BTW John , you really should go into politics, you are gifted at over complicating and over simplifying in the same breath:D

[Depot]

Lucy, I agree with u 100% and Im all for doing something about it. I have in no way critisized OMVOC or what its trying to do.. simply cause i dont know exactly what it is trying to do.. details...i need more details other than membership fees. Exactly what is it they are trying to do and how they plan on doing it...

Everything Ive been bitchin about so far was on insurance and the stupidity associated with it and ppl's perceptions.

D

[SamiFlyer]

BTW John , you really should go into politics, you are gifted at over complicating and over simplifying in the same breath:D

Yeah but wait until you're on our side. I pity the people who would have to debate against him. :D

John, as I understand it, the OMVOC is trying to change things at the same level that the snowmobile and ATV groups did to get where they are now. Like you mentioned, those vehicles are built to a standard of safety for their intended purpose. However, I don't know anybody (and I know a lot of ATVers and snowmobilers up here) who didn't spend the extra $150-200 to "chip" there quad, or a set of huge tires or even an expensive lift kit after dropping $10g on their machine! Adding carry racks and two-up seats when that particular machine is not designed for two people and the like. Similar with people putting pipes on their snowmachines and studs in the quest for more speed when the max speed on any OFSC trail is 50km/h! Modifying their sleds to do stunts and such. How are these people doing anything different that what we are? These people mod their machines and their insurance isn't out of control like ours. That's because they were organized, lobbied the government relentlessly and finally got somewhere. Change won't happen overnight, but it has to start today.

I don't blame you for wanting to know what the OMVOC wants to do. I don't have all the specific details to everything but I do know that if the snowmobilers and ATVers can get somewhere, so can we, perhaps even using some of their precedents to help us achieve our goals.

As for me wanting my cake AND eating it too, well that's how you get somewhere. You aim high and inevitably end up having to make some compromises along the way. If you only shoot for what you consider the absolute minimum, you still make compromises, achieve nothing and regret it in the end.


Sean :cool:

[Lucy]

Lucy, I agree with u 100% and Im all for doing something about it. I have in no way critisized OMVOC or what its trying to do.. simply cause i dont know exactly what it is trying to do.. details...i need more details other than membership fees. Exactly what is it they are trying to do and how they plan on doing it...

Everything Ive been bitchin about so far was on insurance and the stupidity associated with it and ppl's perceptions.

D

If you want some more info your should PM Jeff and get him to give you a call. I spoke with him yesterday and I was impressed , he has a really good direction , really good ideas , the right contacts and knows how to work the system. Knowing you I think you would quiet enjoy a conversation with him, you should contact him.

[Lucy]

Yeah but wait until you're on our side. I pity the people who would have to debate against him. :D

No kidding, he's exhausting isn't he:bugeye: lol




As for me wanting my cake AND eating it too, well that's how you get somewhere. You aim high and inevitably end up having to make some compromises along the way. If you only shoot for what you consider the absolute minimum, you still make compromises, achieve nothing and regret it in the end.


Sean :cool:

Very well put, and very true!

[Loco]

These people mod their machines and their insurance isn't out of control like ours

Are these people reporting their mods and receiving compensation for them on any claims (theft,collision,etc)?

[SamiFlyer]

Are these people reporting their mods and receiving compensation for them on any claims (theft,collision,etc)?

Theft claims for ATVs and snowmachines have been climbing steadily for years now. People are either getting compensation or those mods are showing up on the new machine after the insurance company has paid out. Tell me there's no funny business going on there and I'll tell you my ins. co. knows all about my plans to drop a 351W into the RadioFlyer.........and they don't care.;)

I don't have the official numbers concerning the percentage of injuries and liability claims from ATV and snowmobile accidents but I can tell you two things.
1. I hear of way more fatal ATV/snowmobile deaths and/or serious injuries than I do for off-road trucks.
2. The quads/snowmachines my buddies ride cost more on average than any of my trucks, are ridden nearly every weekend (more often than I go out with my truck) and pay much less in insurance for that privilege. (if you take into account only the collision component since they do not pay a premium for street use)

The last part of #2 is even more shocking considering that insurance premiums would be even higher for the truck crowd if they fully disclosed all the mods!


Sean :cool: