Offroaders closing trails ??

[Morpheus]

Here's a thread on the Hardcore Sledder site that has some interesting reading. Sledders sure have some misconceptions about us offroaders.
There are even threats to slash our tires and put spike strips in the mudholes.
http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234091

[SamiFlyer]

Those fawking hypocrits! BTDT. I was hoping this would stay out of this forum but I guess it just strikes a nerve everywhere.

Had some issues with those hardcore whiners last year after some dipshit on our local board went and posted some pics of some Heeps on a trail with a "Trail Closed" sign in it. They seemed to think that just because they have trails on Crown Land that they can close them down for everybody so that we don't ruin "their" trails!:rant: They posted my info on their board, threatened me bla bla bla. Cowards all of them.:bringiton

[mars_man]

I'd be the "dipshit"... haha.

:D

As I said before,I was just defending some friends of mine that volunteer alot of hours maintaining the trails, ect.. we pay for trail passes (way too much BTW), only to run trails that are all messed up due to boggin' w/ huge holes and ruts. If you want to run around in 4' of mud and have your buddy take pics of you when your 2 feet away from an STP "trail closed" sign, go ahead. I personnally wouldn't do this, but to each their own.

Just think of the sledder that pays 280$ to run the trails that are all messed up.

You can also think of any ATV rider or dirt bike rider that's trying to go for a nice ride down the trail only to turn the next corner and find 4' of mudd that's practically not crossable... downed trees all over used to jam under stuck truck's tires, ect.

I hope this post doesn't get me banned from here as well. Hopefully the Zook crowd have a bit more depth and can see both sides of an argument.

Actually I know I won't get banned for this cause this site does not endorse ruinning snowmobile trails, as it's more organised than that other site, where the pics were from...

Crown land, not crown land, who cares, stay off the sled trails, and everyone's happy. Or actually go on the trails all you want, but tread lightly. No harm done, I ride my motoX bike all summer long on sled trails, no problem. Whenever I had / get a new rig, there are plenty of places to wheel, such as nickel offset, pole lines,Gordon lk. Moonlight beach... ect. no sense in purpously digging a 4' bog down the middle of a well traveled ATV / Sled trail...

What's your reason for feeling that you have the right to dig a 4' bog down the middle of a sled trail ?

Have a nice day Sean!

:D

*mars, reaches into closet and grabs fire-proof flame retardant suit* haha. :rofl:

[MuddMachine]

I'd be the "dipshit"... haha.

:D

As I said before,I was just defending some friends of mine that volunteer alot of hours maintaining the trails, ect.. we pay for trail passes (way too much BTW), only to run trails that are all messed up due to boggin' w/ huge holes and ruts. If you want to run around in 4' of mud and have your buddy take pics of you when your 2 feet away from an STP "trail closed" sign, go ahead. I personnally wouldn't do this, but to each their own.

Just think of the sledder that pays 280$ to run the trails that are all messed up.

You can also think of any ATV rider or dirt bike rider that's trying to go for a nice ride down the trail only to turn the next corner and find 4' of mudd that's practically not crossable... downed trees all over used to jam under stuck truck's tires, ect.

I hope this post doesn't get me banned from here as well. Hopefully the Zook crowd have a bit more depth and can see both sides of an argument.

Actually I know I won't get banned for this cause this site does not endorse ruinning snowmobile trails, as it's more organised than that other site, where the pics were from...

Crown land, not crown land, who cares, stay off the sled trails, and everyone's happy. Or actually go on the trails all you want, but tread lightly. No harm done, I ride my motoX bike all summer long on sled trails, no problem. Whenever I had / get a new rig, there are plenty of places to wheel, such as nickel offset, pole lines,Gordon lk. Moonlight beach... ect. no sense in purpously digging a 4' bog down the middle of a well traveled ATV / Sled trail...

What's your reason for feeling that you have the right to dig a 4' bog down the middle of a sled trail ?

Have a nice day Sean!

:D

*mars, reaches into closet and grabs fire-proof flame retardant suit* haha. :rofl:

Hey listen marsman... fuk you and fuk your trails and fuk your $300 passes. I tried dealing with you fukheads. 5 of us offered to pay the local club in Coldwater right on the spot, all they did was make excuses. We dont cut the trees down to make a trail into a hiway. Furthermore the OFSC leases the trail from Nov to April. You dont own the fukn trail. Dont get me goin. It wont take much for you to join the band if you wanna come here and spout off on the sled heads behalf.

You used to own a zook, did you make 4 ft deep holes with 31" tires???

Fukhead.

:upy: :upy: :upy:

[Mud Lite]

I am having a hard time getting the link to work so can someone post up these pics of the 4' mud bog? When was this created? If it is a recent problem, then I would say that it is an unorganized group of wheelers that has no respect for hobby or trail. This is the worst time of the year to wheel since most of the trails are saturated and very vulnerable to damage.

This does not condone threatening other trail users!! Weather nail strips or barbed wire , we don't need to throw arround idle threats. We need to educate and get along as trail users or we won't have trails to ride.

Can't we all just get along?:D

[SamiFlyer]

I had you on ignore but I feel this needs to come out.


I'd be the "dipshit"... haha.
At least you are smart enough to know it.



As I said before,I was just defending some friends of mine that volunteer alot of hours maintaining the trails, ect.. we pay for trail passes (way too much BTW), only to run trails that are all messed up due to boggin' w/ huge holes and ruts. If you want to run around in 4' of mud and have your buddy take pics of you when your 2 feet away from an STP "trail closed" sign, go ahead. I personnally wouldn't do this, but to each their own.
First of all, the STP "Trail Closed" sign is just that. A sign indicating that the trail is closed to SNOWMOBILES! These are put up by your organization because there are plenty of fawktards with sleds who run these trails before and after the the official season. You all think that because the OFSC and their "holier than thou" volunteers maintain the trails, that they somehow belong to them exclusively.:roll:
These are trails on Crown Land that were made long before the OFSC existed and the large majority of them were funded by the MNR and thus our tax dollars. As such, anybody has a right to use them.




Just think of the sledder that pays (insert stupid ever-increasing ludicrous amount of money here) to run the trails that are all messed up.
Think of the people who pay taxes that funded these roads in the first place. Think of the guys who don't want to own a sled but instead want to build a capable off-road truck that can tackle the roughest terrain. As soon as a trail appears somewhere, all the OFSC wants to do is make it smooth, put their signs up and whine like a bunch of pussies because the trucks are "messing" it up. **** you asswipe.


You can also think of any ATV rider or dirt bike rider that's trying to go for a nice ride down the trail only to turn the next corner and find 4' of mudd that's practically not crossable... downed trees all over used to jam under stuck truck's tires, ect.
Where the hell do you see 4 foot holes? I want to know so I can go try them. That's what I built my truck for. Tell me where they are! :thefinger
The sledders have the benefit of snow and ice to get across anything they come up on. If you are out on a sled and come across a mud pit that you cannot cross, then you are stupid for sledding out of season!


I hope this post doesn't get me banned from here as well. Hopefully the Zook crowd have a bit more depth and can see both sides of an argument.

Actually I know I won't get banned for this cause this site does not endorse ruinning snowmobile trails, as it's more organised than that other site, where the pics were from...
You failed to realize we don't endorse fawking idiots here either! Go eat a bowl of dicks.


Crown land, not crown land, who cares, stay off the sled trails, and everyone's happy. Or actually go on the trails all you want, but tread lightly. No harm done, I ride my motoX bike all summer long on sled trails, no problem. Whenever I had / get a new rig, there are plenty of places to wheel, such as nickel offset, pole lines,Gordon lk. Moonlight beach... ect. no sense in purpously digging a 4' bog down the middle of a well traveled ATV / Sled trail...
These were trails just wide enough for a truck and now the OFSC turns them into a superhighway at least 10-12ft wide so that their groomers can pass. Tread lightly huh? Holy fawk you are stupid! They are not sled trails all year long! Stay off my wheeling trails and I won't have to listen to you whine like a little bitch! :thefinger


What's your reason for feeling that you have the right to dig a 4' bog down the middle of a sled trail ?
What's your reason you feel you need to fill in a 4ft hole that the trucks like to use? Challenging terrain is the reason some of us build our trucks.


Have a nice day Sean!
**** you Marcel! Back on ignore BTW.

[Morpheus]

Apparently the server went down shortly after I posted the link to that thread. it should be up and running by today sometime.
I really want to sign up, although I'll probably be banned after my first post:rofl:

[SamiFlyer]

But in the meantime, here is a sampling (http://www.gno.edu.on.ca/Simon/Toughguy/toughguy/truck/ZP/1347.wmv) of the rocket scientists we are talking about! :rofl:

[Loco]

But in the meantime, here is a sampling (http://www.gno.edu.on.ca/Simon/Toughguy/toughguy/truck/ZP/1347.wmv) of the rocket scientists we are talking about! :rofl:

LOL that's mint. Dumbest home videos watch out. Bwahahaha.:rofl:

[mars_man]

I think we can all get along. Easily.

One thing has to happen first though. The OFSC should drop everything it's done for one. Snomobilers should be able to ride "free" like trucks and ATV's anywhere they want. Sure, the trails won't be signed, and a little rough, but it's not a major problem if you think of it.

Why should a guy with a snowmobile have to pay, when an ATV / truck goes on for free?

They should drop the whole system, everyone would be happy I think, ride where you want / what you want. Sometimes un-organised is better, specially in the Sudbury area where INCO / Falco owns everything, and they don't care if anyone rides on their property.

Sean's got me on ignore, but if you want mud, run Verm to fairbanks in 3-4 weeks, you'll need to be locked all around on 33's I'd think. Bring a winch as well. haha.

[Lost Soul]

LMFAO! I would not have been able to help that guy, I would have been laughing to hard. On to the Topic, why is it groups cannot work together instead of working against, Come on there are no Built 4 foot holes that is BS, besides as stated, if it is that deep it will have water and in the Winter you go over it.

[Morpheus]

Marsman, snowmobilers pay because the trails are groomed for them. Go on one trail that hasn't been groomed after 500 sleds have run over it and you'll see why constant grooming is neccessary. Sledders don't want to crawl along riding over the washboards. They want to go fast.
Also during sledding season ( including a few weeks before and after the snow) the sledders have exclusive use of trails on some private and crown land.
A lot of trails are excluded from that however, even though they may be marked with OFSC signage.
The rest of the year the trails don't have to be groomed for us offroaders. Most of the mudholes where we make our 'ruts' are frozen over by sledding season so that is a moot point.
The trails do not need to be monitors by trail wardens looking for trail stickers in the offroading season. The need for one causes the need for the other. The stickers pay for the trail wardens to check the stickers, lol.

Don't think for a minute that the trails we use as offroaders will soon fall under the same legislation and rules as sledders. The OF4WD is already working with the OFSC. In a few years we might need trail stickers too.
The future of our sport will be large private offroading parks where you pay to use the trails and camp out for the weekend.

[Mud Lite]

The key to all of this is education at all levels. We ALL need to respect each others hobby and understand when things are getting out of hand. Offroaders need to respect the trails and tread lightly and stay out of sensitive areas. The OFSC has to stop taking trails and making 4 lane hi-ways out of them. Why should they be alowed to level a forest, fill in valleys, lop off the hi points but yet we can't cut a tree down?

We ALL need to work together or Private land WILL be the only place to wheel. Alberta lost 90% of their trails! Why? I think they liked to play in the mud too much. ( my opinion) Most of the OFSC trails I run are only to get to the real trails.

Maybe instead of jumping all over these guys, we can try to educate them. It is a two way street.

[MuddMachine]

Marsman is still a punk thats wet behind the ears. Furthermore he's proven he likes to stir the pot. You're a fukn stooge. I'd say it's almost time for you to join the band.

[mars_man]

25 posts a year, I wouldn't lose any sleep over joining the band. I do however think this post is a legit discussion, a bit of swearing, but nothing major. It's almost Miller time, see you boys Monday morning, if I'm still allowed. :rofl:

[whateverworks]

I know I am very fawkin tired of the blame game... tis total fawkin bullshit as we all need to work together to keep trails open for all areas of ORV use... Getting tired as a 4x4 owner that "we" wreck the trails... Getting tired of the cliche "Drunken redneck with a truck" mentallity that keeps popping up all the time. It takes a selected few dumb asses to ruin it for all and those few come from all factions... Not just 4x4's.
Kelly

[Lost Soul]

I know I am very fawkin tired of the blame game... tis total fawkin bullshit as we all need to work together to keep trails open for all areas of ORV use... Getting tired as a 4x4 owner that "we" wreck the trails... Getting tired of the cliche "Drunken redneck with a truck" mentallity that keeps popping up all the time. It takes a selected few dumb asses to ruin it for all and those few come from all factions... Not just 4x4's.
Kelly


So true man. We are not all responsible for the Stupid among us, but we are for our own actions. It is too bad that not everyone takes that to heart!

[cutzook]

I am a snowmobiler and a wheeler, I can understand both points of view. Winter brings ice and snow and now there is also " MULTI USE TRAILS " all across ontario and the ofsc shares and maintains these trails also. The snow pack on a groomed trail will usually suport a full size truck, a built offroad truck willnot damage the trail surface unless u r doing a burnout, an atv with skinny littles tires will rut the trail surface easily when the tires are spinnin like mad.

I personaly drove my wheeler into the local pits down the ofsc trail and I couldn't tell were I had been by looking. wheeled in the loose deep snow had a blast and drove down the trail back to my truck with no harm done. All the finger pointing will get nothing done, when I volunteer I will bring my off road rig out to haul people and gear on a trailer to the necessary spots instead of an atv. Yes its bigger and It's also no more impactfull on the environment or trail surface.

Ah the video shows the beautifull way NOT to cross a stream and only emphasises thre reason the ofsc say's to stay on the trail. We don't know were this happened but its textbook example for the tree huggers and their crusade in banning all of us from outdoor recreation with a motorized vehicle.

INCASE SOME OF U GUY'S MISSED WHAT I SAID

" THE VIDEO IS A TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE FOR THE TREE HUGGERS TO USE FOR THEIR CRUSADE TO BAN ALL MOTORIZED OUTDOOR RECREATION ON PUBLIC LANDS AND TRAILS. "

I personaly enjoy some off trail sleddin sometimes but, the ofsc asks that we not because of environmental impact on crown lands and the always FRAGILE private land use issues that plague the sport. This video is amusing though, i guess he couldn't see the tree clearly from 30'.

Anyway there is a view from on the fence, I can relate and finger pointin don,t work.

[Lucy]

I agree it is unfair for us all to get blamed for the few idiots amongst us but unfortunately it is human nature to try to categorize people and for one group to lump another group together and paint them all with the same brush. Problem is they never see the good wheelers cause we don't leave a big mess behind. Unfortunately it is up to us to police and educate our own people cause in the end it is our business as they effect all of us. If you see a guy trashing a trail and doing the crap that you know will get it closed down and just stand there and do nothing , your just allowing all the stereotyping and trail closers to continue , and in that sense we are all to blame.

Also the sledders have an advantage as they are more organized ,so to outsiders they look like an orderly group and we look like a bunch of renegades and yahoos. I've been saying this for years , we need to get our collective crap together , get organized and work together as a group to change the public image of 4 wheeling and have a united front to face issues and work with other groups. Like really if you read the thread going on over at the sledding site, that have no idea who we are or what we represent ....they even seem to think our sport makes no economical impact , well excuse me but the off road after market is a multi billion dollar industry. It just goes to show they really do think we are a bunch of yahoos and hicks slapping trucks together with 2x4's and rebar:roll: and they are not alone. Unfortunately we are partly to blame for the fact that these mythconseptions still exist about our sport. One thing I've noticed about wheelers in my 14 years in the sport is , for the most part they are loner types that like to do there own thing and don't really play well with other unless they own a 4x4 and even then it can be touchy and they'll start biting at each other....now don't get all offended ,I know this cause I'm one of you:thefinger .....point being we need to all suck it up and start playing well with others , stop fighting with the sledders , lets be the bigger people here and get them working with us ,we all have the same concerns and the more numbers you have the more you get heard. If we dont there will be nothing left but mini mall and golf carts......if that even happens ,someone please kill me!

[MuddMachine]

Looks like they are just trying to pass the buck. This other thread talks about assholes ruining the farmers lands so they revoke the priveleges. Read the thread and see how they point fingers at each other really well, lol. Sounds like they do way more damage and cause way more shit than we've ever done...

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232673

Remember... misery loves company ;)

[MuddMachine]

Also the sledders have an advantage as they are more organized ,so to outsiders they look like an orderly group and we look like a bunch of renegades and yahoos. I've been saying this for years , we need to get our collective crap together , get organized and work together as a group to change the public image of 4 wheeling and have a united front to face issues and work with other groups.

Uhh Lucy where have you been??? Every time this trail shit comes up I state why we cant make shit happen. We are organized and work together... as 3 or 4 groups tho :roll: Too much ego involved here. Until we have a 'Federation' of wheelers under one roof, it's not gonna happen. Ive been saying for years... it costs money to maintain trails, no problem, I'll pay. But no one wants my money.

:(

[otto]

Whine, whine, whine.. This has got to be the biggest load of horse crap I've read on this site... Man, you guys gotta get out more, to have 2 groups so vehemently opposed about the same trails is the absolute epitome of stupidity..eventually someone is going to say this is not worth the effort and close it all down for everybody..get your shit together and make life easier for all concerned and quit the petty sqabbling and band together.. there are too many others that are not that happy about anybody using land for anything other than wild bear latrines and bird sanctuaries..soon the only place we'll be able to wheel a 4x4 will be on some video game developed by Microsoft and we'll still have to pay licencing fees anyway.. it's an old cliche.. there is strength in numbers and from the sounds of it, you guys have already taken aim at your foot with a loaded gun and the only thing missing is someone else to step in and say F*** it and pull the trigger... and I for one, don't like having a bullseye painted on my fat ass.. :rant: :po: :bang: :cuss: :boom:

We all know that whatever laws get passed in Ont., eventually filters down to the rest of Canada and Im not quite ready to sell my Zuk cause morons couldn't you see the trail from the your over inflated sense of importance..I'm sure I didnt make any friends with this post, but I don't give a rats ass cause that's the way it looks from outside looking in..

End of editorial !! I gotta get back to wheelin :beatup: :Canada:

[Mud Lite]

Uhh Lucy where have you been??? Every time this trail shit comes up I state why we cant make shit happen. We are organized and work together... as 3 or 4 groups tho :roll: Too much ego involved here. Until we have a 'Federation' of wheelers under one roof, it's not gonna happen. Ive been saying for years... it costs money to maintain trails, no problem, I'll pay. But no one wants my money.

:(

You keep saying that we have two or three groups, but there is only one looking after trail use and that is NL. Upper Canda only looks after Insurnace and the needs of thier clubs. Only a small percentage of our members are from Ontario. So give up on the whole Ego thing, that is in the past. You may want to look at Ontrails as they seem to be looking after a wide range of trail users , including ATV's, Moto-X, 4 wheelers and hikers. Having all the 4wheelers in Ontario under one roof doesn't mean anything if we can't get along with the other trail users. This is the whole point!!!

[SamiFlyer]

You keep saying that we have two or three groups, but there is only one looking after trail use and that is NL. Upper Canda only looks after Insurnace and the needs of thier clubs. Only a small percentage of our members are from Ontario. So give up on the whole Ego thing, that is in the past.

Not to undermine the efforts of NL, but they are primarily concerned with trails in and around their neck of the woods, specifically Hastings.


You may want to look at Ontrails as they seem to be looking after a wide range of trail users , including ATV's, Moto-X, 4 wheelers and hikers. Having all the 4wheelers in Ontario under one roof doesn't mean anything if we can't get along with the other trail users. This is the whole point!!!

Not sure about Ontrail, I'll have to look into it further but didn't the OFSC have a hand in its creation? I could be wrong, I'm just asking.

I agree completely that we need to get along and work together. It's proving to be harder and harder to do with the sledders. Their season is dwindling every year, ATV sales have tripled and quadrupled sled sales in many northern areas, they are taking hits from the private landowners who are revoking usage privileges for various reasons, lower trail pass sales every year, etc... They are blaming everybody and anybody and it's not likely to stop.

Realistically, I see no future for the OFSC if they continue to operate the way they are now. With the growing number of ATVs, which can be used in the winter months now, I can see the OFATV fighting for winter trail access for their members. This would open a whole new can of worms.

[MuddMachine]

ML, stop thinkin Im talkin bout you when i bring shit up, cuz im not.

Basically here's what i see. We cant have 1/3 of our wheelers belongin to So and SO and make things happen. If we get a trail plan EVERYONE has to be included or there will be lots of problems. You cant say "Well I dont belong to SO and SO, therefore I dont need a trail pass" And yes Im on about the trail pass, why? Because a trail pass = $$$ from each individual that involved. What was that? It's not about money? I beg to differ. Do you think the Gov would let loggers destroy the fukn land the way they do if there was no $$$ involved? I doubt it.

And as far as sledders go.... I was catchin flack from sledders LONG before I was ever on the net reading shit on forums. I dont think they'll stop blamin us, ever. They pay and we dont. Basically using the trails is a free ride for us. Thats how a sledder sees it anyways.

[Lucy]

Uhh Lucy where have you been??? Every time this trail shit comes up I state why we cant make shit happen. We are organized and work together... as 3 or 4 groups tho :roll: Too much ego involved here. Until we have a 'Federation' of wheelers under one roof, it's not gonna happen. Ive been saying for years... it costs money to maintain trails, no problem, I'll pay. But no one wants my money.

:(

When I say work together I mean all under one roof, that is my whole point! having 3 or 4 groups doing there own thing isn't going to help in the long run...thust the getting our collective crap together. I understand why you might feel discouraged about the whole mess but really ,if a bunch of back biting yahoos like sledders can do it why can't we?

[Mud Lite]

A trail pass system has its advantages but also its disadvantages. Where does the money go? How much is a trail pass? ( we aren't grooming trails and can't create new ones). It's hard enough to get the average wheeler out that can't afford the price of gas, let alone a trail pass. It would keep the yahoo's off the trails when they are sensitive ( like right now!!!). Who is going to police this? Are the OPP going to sit at the top of Pinion Pass or Greens? Do all trail users pay the same fee? Lots of questions.

If a system like this came in it would force everyone to become a "Federation of Paid Trail Users". Is this what you are talking about Tony? Sorry if I jumped on you, but you have to be more specific when you are talking about 'Groups' and 'Federations' and ego's.

Education is the key to keeping our trails open.

-TREAD LIGHTLY
-don't use the same trails week after week
-don't run trails in the spring!
-keep out of sensitive areas, bogs, swamps and beaver ponds
-don't run up or down streems
-3 tries and your out rule
-always use a winch when possible
-stick to the trails
-varify that trails are not private land
-never cut trees
-never wheel alone
-bring out what you took in
-fix all oil leaks before you hit the trails
-be courtious to other trail users
-always stop to let other users go by
-don't cut new trails.

[Mud Lite]

When I say work together I mean all under one roof, that is my whole point! having 3 or 4 groups doing there own thing isn't going to help in the long run...thust the getting our collective crap together. I understand why you might feel discouraged about the whole mess but really ,if a bunch of back biting yahoos like sledders can do it why can't we?

Who do we want under the same roof?:(

[MuddMachine]

If a system like this came in it would force everyone to become a "Federation of Paid Trail Users". Is this what you are talking about Tony? .

Yes thats what im talkin about cuz we all know... kash is king and money talks. Why you think the sledders get so pissed. If you cant afford it , take up kite flying. Sorry to be a prick but...

[Lucy]

Who do we want under the same roof?:(


I'm referring to the 4WD community, I'm not talking about trying to lump ourselve in with the sledders and ATV's.What I'm talking about is ideally one organization to serve as the wheeling communities collective voice or at least get all of the groups representing wheelers from their area to work together on the bigger issues. Once we have a collective voice then maybe we can try to educate and cooperate with the sledding and ATVing groups not to be under one roof with them but to stand as a united front when dealing with land use issues that effect all of the groups, as numbers get the goverments attention.
I just feel like wheelers as a community are scattered about in little pockets , some are just ignoring the problems, some just bitch and moan and the ones that are trying to do something about it aren't working together and are poking at the problem from different angles and not getting very far, thats my perception anyway and it's most frustrating.

[Lucy]

Yes thats what im talkin about cuz we all know... kash is king and money talks. Why you think the sledders get so pissed. If you cant afford it , take up kite flying. Sorry to be a prick but...

I have to agree with you on this , if you show the government they can make money off us then suddenly they will start listening and cooperating with us more. Money makes the world go around!

[Mud Lite]

We have a voice. It's called Northern Lights. The offroading cominuty doesn't have the numbers to be a voice, and that is why we have to lump ourselves under one roof WITH the sledders and ATV's, or we get left out in the cold like we have been.

[Lucy]

We have a voice. It's called Northern Lights. The offroading cominuty doesn't have the numbers to be a voice, and that is why we have to lump ourselves under one roof WITH the sledders and ATV's, or we get left out in the cold like we have been.

Personally I think we do have the numbers , problem is there aren't enough wheelers getting involved. From my own experience for every 10 wheelers I meet maybe 2 of then have heard of NL.I think not only do we need to improve wheelings image to outsiders but we also seem to have a need for more awareness in our own community about how threatened our sport is , that there is something they can do about it and what that something is (i.e. NL).
Agreed lumping ourselves in with the sled and ATV crowd would give us easy numbers and in a perfect world this would be a great route to take.To me the problem is , this is not a perfect world , there is a long standing feud between sledders and wheelers. Now here we come trying to lump ourselves in with them to further our cause. From there perspective (however twisted and misinformed in may be) it looks like "well we don't like you but we are losing the battle so let us ride your coat tails" , I can't see this going over very well. As for the ATV crowd from what I can tell they are more on the fence and we do (if you think about it) have more in common with them , but the fact still remains that even though all 3 groups have common issues with trail closers and insurance we still all have different needs and issues that unfortunately can't be covered with one blanket all the time. This is why I feel that each group needs a voice of there own, but we do need to collaborate with each other i.e. when dealing with the government show a united front of all groups , when dealing with each groups needs cooperate with each other. Instead of fighting over trail conditions come to agreements on how to use trails , when to use trails and maybe even agree on certain trails being for a certain groups use for periods of time i.e. the sledders get trails designated for the sledders and wheeler stay off them , and other trails designated for wheeling use so sledders stay off. Now I realize this is no easy task to accomplish and if it were to work we would have to go the route that mudmachine has suggested. A system where we pay either a federation type membership fee or trail pass fee for the right to use trails. Who would police this? ( cause I know your going to ask;)) , the OPP same as with the sledders now.
It's unfortunate but the way things are going this might be the only way our sport can feasibly survive.

[MuddMachine]

A system where we pay either a federation type membership fee or trail pass fee for the right to use trails. Who would police this? ( cause I know your going to ask;)) , the OPP same as with the sledders now.
It's unfortunate but the way things are going this might be the only way our sport can feasibly survive.

Paying would be the only way. If you think we'll ever get a right or trail pass without shellin out some $$$ you're way off center. Thats why we need to be one. Wether you're a member of a club, NL, UC4WD, you all have to pay the federation for a pass. Who would police it? Volunteers and OPP. And forget about us bein lumped in with sledders. Never happen. Never.

[Mud Lite]

Well if we don't lump our selves in with the Sledders, they will continue to eat up our trails and turn them into 4 lane hi-ways and we will continue to be shit in the eyes of the MNR. Why is it that the OFSC can create a new trail or widen and existing one, but we can't? Numbers=Money. I'd say that sleds and ATV's out number 4x4's 10:1. We have been left out of all land use talk to this date, how will this change? It is a loosing battle or at best, we are treading water.

Private land is the answer.

[MuddMachine]

The sledders wont allow us to be lumped in with them.

[Mud Lite]

The sledders wont allow us to be lumped in with them.

Well with less and less snow, and a shorter season, then maybe we should align with the ATV's then.

[SamiFlyer]

Well with less and less snow, and a shorter season, then maybe we should align with the ATV's then.
I think that would be a very good idea. ATVs are outselling sleds by a large amount, even up here in Northern Ontario.

[Mud Lite]

The sledders wont allow us to be lumped in with them.

Never say never MM. If we align with ATV's then Align ourselves with the OFSC. All this means is we work together to sort out our differences rather than the MNR doing this. If it means bringing in a trail fee, so beit. If it means dividing trails up so that sensitive areas are missed during wheeling season so beit. But it also gives us some say in what NEW trails are created or taken over. The way it is now we have zero say and we keep loosing. I don't care what anyone says, we don't have the numbers that sleds or ATV's have.

[MuddMachine]

I don't care what anyone says, we don't have the numbers that sleds or ATV's have.

I agree. There's over 300,000 registered sleds in Ontario and atv's have been outselling them the past few years at a 3:1 ratio. Goin with atvers may be a much better idea. They always like hangin around with a group of trucks.

[Lucy]

I agree. There's over 300,000 registered sleds in Ontario and atv's have been outselling them the past few years at a 3:1 ratio. Goin with atvers may be a much better idea. They always like hangin around with a group of trucks.

Very true , I've had ATV's happily tag along on wheeling trips quite a few times ,not just that but we also have a common foe , I know around here I hear twice as much bitching by sledders about ATV's then I do about trucks , chances are the ATV crowd and sledders are going to end up fast enemies. There numbers and our commonality with them makes them great potential allies.

[Evolvocane]

All I know is that if I ever caught some dumb fawk slicing my tires, I'd burn his sled down then I'd move on to his house.

I'm about through with trying to play nice with them. Infact. Fuk the sleds! I'm in a truck and I look forward to fuking your trail! I hope you rip the tracks off your piss poor rigs! Oh I also don't give two shits how much you spend on a trail pass! As far as I'm concerned they are my trails!

I feel better now. Can't we all just get along? We have to share the trails, That ain't gonna change. We can work together or we can butt heads. Course last time I checked a truck beats a sled all day long.

[MuddMachine]

Just a heads up. Last nite I was on my way to a buddy's place and what did I see? About 8 atv's on the sled trail, having a nite run. Not good.

[mars_man]

A few of us were out on MX bikes yesterday, man, with the huge lack of snow this winter, there is very little mud/water out there. Sidenote : we didn't go out and take a crap load of pics where were are a few feet away from "trail closed" signs... haha. ;)

[squamch]

I grabbed this off page 2 of the thread on teh sledder's site...sound like a court martial waiting to happen to anyone else?


Here's a fitting one for this thread...Just do like my neighbour last year...a bunch of these hotheads came across his land on the OFSC trail, tore up the trail, winched down his gate and celebrated about it. Well, they hit the deck quick when they heard metal being hit and a big blast of steam and smoke shoot from the lead trucks' engine. Best part is nobody saw him! Good for him!

Moral of the story...don't trespass on a Canadian Forces Soldier's land, especially if he's a marksman on leave from Afghanistan, tear up his property, tear down his gate, and celebrate it. They're trained to knock enemy tanks and vehicles out of commission so a 4X4 truck is a sitting duck! http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.png <!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_2638428-->
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[longy442]

Private land is the answer.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to bring back a dead horse.
With the recent post I went back and did some reading, this is the one statement to me that make the most sence of the entire thread.

Rocky crappy land in the far north, or I'm sure in the near north is relatively cheap. But I'm not sure the number of offroaders are here even for someone in Canada to open an offroad park.

I think a better idea would be for a group or co-op if you will of offroaders to pool $$ and purchase property together just for this use. A one time purchase fee, a yearly due to cover insurance and away you go. Any member uses the land anytime.

Wouldn't be that expensive, I saw 12 acres last year not far from sudbury for around 15 grand. I almost concidered buying that myself. I know 12 acres ain't alot, but go farther north and find 50 acres or 100. find a sweet price, even if a group of truckers had to pay a grand up front, big deal for a area you could camp and wheel in anytime you wanted.

A wheelers co-op, thats the answer to trail proplems.
or I could be just nutz

[MuddMachine]

Sledders can bitch all they want. Every run I have up here is done on rock. Minimal impact. Furthermore, our group NEVER sees another group of wheelers when we go play. Any of the hotspots in southern ontario are nothing but parking lots on long weekends. Keep it.