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Depot
September 11th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Finally some good news....

this all started from a thread here http://ccfbg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4844

several conversations and days of research I have this to offer...

Bill Cann from MTO Carrier Safety And Enforcement Branch wrote and passed on these new excemptions.... Ive spoken to him personally and got copies from him...



PERSONAL USE PICK-UP TRUCK AMENDMENTS FOR:
Commercial Vehicle Operators' Registration (CVOR),
Daily Vehicle Inspections (trip inspections), and
Hours-of-Service (log books)

August 16, 2007

© Queen's Printer for Ontario, 2007. This is an unofficial version of Government of Ontario legal materials. For accurate reference refer to the official volumes.
All Ontario law may be viewed on the internet at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/

The following information introduces three new exemptions that may exempt a pick-up that is being used for personal use from the requirements of CVOR, daily vehicle inspections and hours-of-service. In the past the requirements did not distinguish between a pick-up that was being used for personal use or business use. Certain exemptions did apply in the past.

A "pick-up" that is only ever used for "personal use" or is only ever used to tow a trailer that used for personal use, is exempt from CVOR, daily vehicle inspection and hours-of-service.

"pick-up" in this document means,
a pick-up that has a vehicle weight rating (VWR) of 6,000 kgs (13,227 lbs) or less and is fitted with either,
- the original box that was installed by the manufacturer, which has not been modified, or
- a replacement box that duplicates the one that was installed by the manufacturer, which has not been modified.

Note, a fifth wheel or ball installed in the box of a pick-up is not a modification of the box.

Some 450 and 550 series cab and chassis trucks have been converted into pick-ups by after market companies. This type of pick-up does not qualify, as "pick-up" because the vehicle manufacturer did not install the box and the VWR will likely be over 6,000 kgs.

VWR is the amount determined by the manufacturer of a pick-up to be the maximum loaded weight of the pick-up. The rating can normally be found on a sticker on the driver's door and may be listed under "vehicle weight rating" (VWR) or "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR).

"Personal use " in this document means,
a pick-up that is being used for personal use without compensation, and is not carrying, or towing a trailer that is carrying, commercial cargo or tools or equipment of a type normally used for commercial use.

The following considerations may assist in determining whether a pick-up is for "personal use"
- Pick-ups towing house trailers, camper trailers, boat trailers, ATV and snowmobile trailers, etc. when towed for recreational purposes are examples of personal use trailers.

- Stockcar and racecar trailers, when towed for recreational purposes are considered personal use trailers, even though prize money may be involved in the racing.

The following is offered as guidance when towing horses:
personal use would include moving a horse to or from:
- fairs, exhibitions, horse shows, ploughing matches, pulling competitions.
- boarding facilities, where the horse is not included in a for-profit business.
business use would include moving a horse to or from:
- a racetrack sanctioned by the Ontario Racing Commission, for the purposes of racing, training or breeding.
- a horse used for riding by a facility where the public pays a fee to ride the horse.
- a horse transported by a person in the business of breeding or boarding horses for profit.
Note:
- the personal use pick-up exemption applies regardless of the pick-up's registered gross weight or any actual weights of the pick-up and or trailer.

Pick-ups that are used for both personal and business use:

Business use
If a pick-up or combination pick-up and trailer is being used for business use and the pick-up’s "actual weight" or registered gross weight (RGW) exceeds 4,500 kgs;
- a CVOR certificate is required.
- the driver is subject to the hours-of-service rules, and
- a daily vehicle inspection of the pick-up and any towed trailer is required. A farm use pick-up that is not towing a trailer is exempt.

"actual weight" means the weight of the pick-up plus any weight transferred to the pick-up through the tongue or gooseneck of an attached business use trailer.

Information about determining the correct amount of RGW for a pick-up, whether being used for personal or business use, can be found at; http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/trailers.htm

Personal use
When the same pick-up is being used for personal use the pick-up is exempt from CVOR daily vehicle inspection and hours-of-service:
- the driver is not required to produce a CVOR certificate.
- a daily vehicle inspection is not required,
- the driver is not subject to the hours-of-service rules.

Notes:
- a pick-up that is normally used for business purposes, including a farm plated pick-up qualifies as a personal use pick-up if it complies with and is being used in accordance with the personal use exemption rules.
- a trailer that is normally used for business purposes qualifies as a personal use trailer if it complies with and is being used in accordance with the personal use rules and is towed with a personal use pick-up.

Detailed information for owners and drivers of pick-ups that are used for business use and have weights over 4,500 kgs can be found at:
For CVOR - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/cvor/index.html
For daily vehicle inspections - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/daily.htm
Please note this web page will soon be up-dated to reflect the new regulation, which comes into effect on July 1, 2007.
For hours-of service - http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/hours.htm

Annual safety inspections
A pick-up, whether or not it is used for personal or business use may require an annual safety inspection. For details please visit: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/annual.htm

The regulations containing the pick-up exemptions can be viewed at:

Regulation 424/97, (Commercial Motor Vehicle Operators’ Information) made under Section 16 of the Highway Traffic Act has been amended to exempt "personal use pick-up trucks". Effective date was June ¬¬¬8, 2007 http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_970424_e.htm Section 1.2.

Regulation 199/07 (Commercial Motor Vehicle Inspection Regulation (trip inspections), made under the Highway Traffic Act includes an exemption for "personal use pick-up trucks". Effective date of the Regulation and exemption is July 1, 2007.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_070199_e.htm Section 1.(1)(g)&(2).

Regulation 555/06 (Hours-of-Service Regulation), made under the Highway Traffic Act also includes an exemption for "personal use pick-up trucks". Effective date was January 1, 2007.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_060555_e.htm Section 3.(2) &(4).

End

Depot
September 11th, 2007, 11:47 AM
heres are word formats of the above post.

keep in mind.. that the rules for registered weights have not changed. ur truck still ahs to be registered for its own weight including load and tongue weight of trailer if the trailer falls into the excemption class.. otherwise it must include the trailers weight too.

Bill is currently working to get rid of the weigh scale requirement for us too but as it stands its still required to drive in.... the way he puts it " u wont be fined for going in but u can be fined for driving by.

He also suggests carrying around a copy of the new rules cause most mto enformcement perps still dont know shit.

gl

D

frwinks
September 11th, 2007, 12:15 PM
thanks for looking into this dude:urock:

gobig
September 11th, 2007, 04:26 PM
so with out going into all this MTO mumble, should i be reg my weight past my 4500kgs?

Depot
September 11th, 2007, 08:16 PM
taht depends... what do u have and what does it weigh? do u qualify for small trailer excemptions? is ti a werk p/u truck with original box? etc etc

D

gobig
September 11th, 2007, 10:26 PM
you know what truck i have,dodge 3/4 ton, diesel, my reg weight right now is 4500kg's,and all personal, my car hauler,16' doulbe 3500lbs axles
will be selling that one real soon, and buying a larger 18'or 20' car hauler.
sometimes i pull that 24' enclosed.
i was going to bite the bullet, and up my weight to 23,000lbs,the max you can go on a G lic, and get the yellow sticker, i just didn't want the CVOR and crap that goes with it.

Depot
September 12th, 2007, 08:46 AM
its like this....


does u trailer weight more than 2800 Kg?

If YES, u must register ur truck for how much ur truck, cargo, trailer and all its load actualy weights.

If NO - then u must register ur truck for what ur truck and truck cargo weighs plus tongue weight of the trailer.

These new excemptions DONT CHANGE ANY OF THAT STUFF! All the same old rules on registered weights, yellow stckrs etc still apply.

If ur truck is registered or has a GVWR (the sticker on ur door) of 4500 kg or more, u need a yellow sticker.

If ur truck has a yellow, then so must ur trailer.

The only thing these ammendmants do for us is this....

If u drive a pick-up truck with a gvwr of less than 6000 Kg (my dually is 5400 kg) and have the orginal box that came with it (or similar aftermarket) AND is being usd for personal use.... then u DO NOT need a CVOR, pre-trip or log book. Thats ll the amendmants mean so far.

If u register over 4500kg, u still need yellows. and u still must pull into weigh scales. They wont fine u for going in, but can fine u for driving by.

Personally I would get my shit weighed. The places on dixie/401 do it fer like 10 bucks and u can weigh jsut like mto tells u to do it here...

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/trailers.htm

Depot
September 12th, 2007, 08:49 AM
BUSINESS AND PERSONALL USE pick-ups....

If ur driving a pick-up that is registered to a company or has a company name printed on the side and is registered over 4500KG then YES u need a cvor.

BUT !!!!! when u drive this truck fo personal use (carrying stuff that is not normally associated with business use - like ur zuk) then the excemption rules apply as far as not needing to do pre-trips, log books, hours of service and even providing a copy of the cvor certificate.

make sense?

D

Mud Lite
September 12th, 2007, 06:09 PM
OK, what about Vans? All they talk about is Pick up trucks and trialers? Where does the small trailer exemption come into play? Is it just for weight registration of the vehicle or for yellow tag exemption?

Van = 7300 lbs
trailer= 1500 lbs
Buggy= 3300 lbs

Where do I stand?

Depot
September 12th, 2007, 10:13 PM
The new excemptions are for pick-up trucks ONLY! Dont count on it changing to include vans anytime soon.

The small trailer excemption applies to ALL commercial vehicles - that is vehicles that have black plates.

Lets take ur example ML.

Ur van weighs 3320 kg
trailer - 682
buggy - 1500

so ur traielr would excert at most 2182 KG to the road via its own axels. In fact iw would be slightly less since ur van would be taking some of that load but to be safe lets use the bigger of the weights.

The small trailer excemption says that if ur trailer excerts less that 2800 Kg u get a freebie.

So in this case.. ur van should be registered AT LEAST 3538 Kg. (3320 + 10% of ur trailer assuming thats tongue weight).

Seeing as its the same price to register a vehicle for 3001 upto and including 4000 KG, Id register it at 4000KG which gives u room to breath.

All the sticker prices wrk like that 4001-5000 is one price, 5001-6000 is more and so on.

So far everything I;ve said so far has NOTHING to do with ur yellow stickers! ALL the same old rules still apply wether its biz or personal use.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/annual.htm

that link splains yellows.

Im getting clarification on the yellows from Bill Cann. Seems to me the way i read it.. we'd all need yellows the way its written if our trailers have a GVWR. Those of u that bought trailers from company.. I bet u do have a gvwr or empty weight/capacity ratings on it. and i bet when u add those #'s to ur tow rigs gvwr u'll be over 4500 kg and require a yellow.

home built trailers or trailers that dont have a gvwr get a free ride and slide away from that one. I'll post back when I get clarification on this detail from Bill.

Hey ML - take a look at the sticker on ur drivers door.. what is ur gvwr? if its over 4500 - instant yellow sticker required.

Finally... if ur truck has a yellow... ur trailer MUST have one too. no way outta that one

gl

D

Mud Lite
September 13th, 2007, 08:33 AM
As I said, the GVWR is 3311 Kg or 7300 Lbs. I have blue plates on the van and the trailer is a home built.

So if my trailer is home built plus doesn't transmit more than 2800 Kg's to the ground, then it isn't added to the GVWR of the van , correct?

All I add is 10% of 2182 or 220Kgs. So my Total GVWR would be 3534 Kg's. That is under the 4400 Kg 's required to get a Yellow Sticker.

Lets just say that my van had a black plate and the trailer was manufactured? What then?

cutzook
September 13th, 2007, 10:26 AM
I have spoke to police and mto about this aswell, this is what I understand from those conversations.
2800kg is the max for trailer weight without an anual inspection.
If your trailer exceeds this number the trailer weight is added to the vehicle weight. And as Depot said will likely drive the gross weight of trailer and tow vehicle into the yellow sticker zone.
I also asked about homemade trailers. Although there is no gvwr it still needs to stay UNDER 2800kg's to be excempt from the yellow sticker.

cutzook
September 13th, 2007, 10:33 AM
ML the color of the plate doesn't matter. It's all about the numbers.
I have a 1/2 ton truck, homemade trailer and I have no anual sticker. I will likely be using a 2500 series pick up next year and I will be weighing my trailer loaded to make sure I am under the weight requirement.

If you r unsure of your trailer weights, load em up with all the junk you'll ever carry and get it weighed. Hopping to make it under and getting caught is alot of time lost and big $ tickets with a tow home from a comercial tow truck, more $.

Mud Lite
September 13th, 2007, 10:44 AM
Actually this was my understanding too but we are wrong. The whole misunderstanding is in the " light trailer exemption" . It does not excemp you from having a yellow sticker. If both your trailer and truck and load are more than 4500Kg's, then you DO require a sticker. The only point of the 2800 Kg excemption is in adding the trailer weight to your truck registration. If your trailer and load are more than 2800 Kg's, then you need to add that weight to the Truck registration. So register the truk for 5000 kg's as Depot says.

I have my OUT in the way of making the van and RV. All I need is 3 of 6 appliences. A bed, a Microwave and a chem toilet will exempt me from the yellow sticker.

Depot
September 13th, 2007, 04:19 PM
I havnt heard back from mto guy so i have nothing new to offer.
The way I read that yellows page is..

if ur trucks gvwr > 4500 - get a yellow
if truck gvwr + trailer gvwr > 4500 - get a yellow
if truck aactul weight + trailer actual weight > 4500 - get a yellow

pretty much means taht all of us have to get yellows.

thats just the way im reading it.. I will post back when mto guy emails me back.


Blue plates dont have any of this bullshit to deal with. Only comercial vehicles - anything that has a black plate on it - anything that has the ability to carry cargo - ie pickups, cube vans, mini-vans that dont have rear seats, etc etc...

if u have a blue plate.. u dont have to sweat this shit at all!!! its a passenger vehicle and as such does not have anything to do with commercial.

D

p.s. u never said gvwr or actual weight in ur post :thefinger

p.p.s how'd u get blue plates on a van? did it have a few rows of seats?

if u have the ability to carry cargo (ie removed seats) mto can still charge u with any violations and simple tell u, ur van is registered wrong - get it fixed and heres ur tickets.

cutzook
September 13th, 2007, 06:07 PM
OK guy's ML and D may I add this I am refering to a police officer when i type

"If the trailer is under 2800 it will be weighed seperate from the tow vehicle" So I asked him about the gross weight of both explaining that I tow with a 1/2 ton and he replied that I should be well under the weight. Now with the weight of the trailer and a 3/4 ton truck his answer was I would be close to the 4500 max weight.

And I think I just answered my own Q, the majic # is 4499kg's.

No anuals no problems.

Mud Lite
September 13th, 2007, 07:12 PM
My biggest problem is that a van is not a pick up and therfore is NOT exempt from logs and walk arounds. So my only choice is to convert to RV. All I need is 3 of 6 appliences as stated and I am concidered and RV and NO yellow sticker requiered.:brows:

Depot
September 13th, 2007, 10:28 PM
is ur van black or blue plate????

D

Mud Lite
September 14th, 2007, 09:28 AM
is ur van black or blue plate????

D

It is currently Blue, but should be Black, unless converted to an RV. If I get yanked before, they will make me go black, and you know what they say!!! " Once you go black, you can never go back".......Bwahahahahahaa!!!!:thefinger

Depot
September 14th, 2007, 10:59 AM
ive heard u have to pay a lot more tax on vehicles that are registered as RV. better find out b4 u go buying shitters :thefinger

D

Mud Lite
September 14th, 2007, 11:14 AM
What tax do I have to pay? I own the Van, have paid tax on it already. Anyone have an old chem toilet they don't use anymore?;)

Depot
September 15th, 2007, 12:29 AM
Got a reply email from Mr Cann.... here are the "facts" despite what any cop or cop wanna be says... these are copy/pastes from his email to me....

----------

Before determining if an annual inspection is needed for the truck and
or trailer the truck's RGW needs to be correct. This is determined at
the web site you highlighted.

[http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/trailers.htm]

RGW is one factor in determining the need for stickers. If a truck tows
a heavy trailer (one that transmits over 2,800 kg through the trailer
axle(s) when attached to the truck) the truck's RGW will automatically
be over 4,500 kg. This means the truck and "any" towed trailer will
require an annual inspection. "Any" towed trailer includes a small
trailer, even a snowmobile trailer.

Combined GVWR is another cut point when determining if stickers are
required. Add the truck and trailer's GVWR. If the weight exceeds
4,500 kg both the truck and trailer require inspection. Actual trailer
weight does not play a role in the GVWR calculation.

If a small or home made trailer does not have a GVWR sticker/plate then
the combined GVWR can not be determined, and is not a consideration. If
just the truck's GVWR was over 4,500 then the truck and any towed
trailer (including a trailer with no GVWR sticker) would require
inspection.

Combined actual weight is the final determination. Actual weight and
GVWR are not combined.

[yes kiddies - the way im reading this and the way I read mto's web site.. if ur truck and trailer loaded with all ur food friends and parts weighs more than 4500 kg - actually weighs - then yes, u need yellows for both truck and trailer. Its about 90 bucks with tax for yellows every year for each item yellowed... not the end of the world.]

Also, the new truck and trailer daily (trip) inspection web site went up
yesterday.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/regulations/daily/


Regards Bill


-----


Thats it thats all... I've invite Bill over to have a read through and even post back if he has anythign to add or correct so play nice kiddies.

l8r

D

longy442
September 17th, 2007, 09:05 AM
What tax do I have to pay? I own the Van, have paid tax on it already. Anyone have an old chem toilet they don't use anymore?;)

Taxes??? Ya nothing out of the ordinary on my RV. And I insure it as an RV through a specific RV company and its much cheaper than my normal insurance. Plates and registration cost the same as my other viechles. BTW my birthdays in Nov. and I have to renew my licence and plates for 3 viechles. I'm gonna go broke.

scott03ho
September 17th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Very Cool!

Looks like i can now fully register my truck to pull my enclosed and not have to worry about MTO stopping me and giving me a hastle for no CVOR.



Stockcar and racecar trailers, when towed for recreational purposes are considered personal use trailers, even though prize money may be involved in the racing.