Off-road Insurance Information

[Depot]

I spent most of my day yesterday reding up and phoning around for the following info. At the end of all this, the news is not good...

This is gonna ba long post..

1 - classification of off-road vehicle....
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/A...h/900863_e.htm

3.**For the purposes of the definition of “off-road vehicle” in section 1 of the Act, the following classes of vehicles are prescribed:

1.** Dune buggies.
1.1** Vehicles designed for use on all terrains, commonly known as all-terrain vehicles, that have steering handlebars and a seat that is designed to be straddled by the driver.
1.2** Vehicles designed for utility applications or uses on all terrains that have four or more wheels and a seat that is not designed to be straddled by the driver.
2.** Suzukis, Model Numbers LT125D, LT50E, LT125E, LT185E, LT250EF and LT250EFF.
3.** Hondas, Model Numbers FL250 series and TRX200.
4.** Yamahas, Model Number YFM 200N.* R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 863, s. 3; O.*Reg. 317/03, s.*1.

and

1.**In this Regulation,
“dune buggy” means a self-propelled vehicle with four or more wheels that has been manufactured or modified for off-road use but does not include an amphibious vehicle with six or more wheels;1.

I Spoke with OPP and at the end wass told that my zuk was probably improply plated but its a "grey" area. The law does not clearly state what modifications are neccessary nor does it state who must perform those modifications in order to qualify as a dune buggy. The only way to clarify it would be to fight it in court.

Insurance

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/A...sh/90o04_e.htm


15.**(1)**No person shall drive an off-road vehicle unless it is insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act.* R.S.O. 1990, c.*O.4, s.*15*(1).
Idem
(2)**No owner of an off-road vehicle shall permit it to be driven unless it is insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act.* R.S.O. 1990, c.*O.4, s.*15*(2).

According to my conversation with OPP, club insurance is not good enough. the vehcile specifically has to be insured and pink liability slips must be issued for that vehicle. Just like for cars, atv's and snowmobiles.

here's where it got impossible... i called over 100 ins companies and brokers. most of em wouldnt even insure buggy's and NONE of em would insure anything that was modified from stock. Its a catch 22, truck must be manufactured or modified to qualify as a buggy, but if its not on their list of manufactred off-road vehicles or modified to qualify, u cant get plates. But once u modify, u cant get insurance. wtf???

I even called the Insurance bureau of Canada with no help. They went so far as to tell me they dont think I need liability insurance when Im on crown land but couldnt respond when I read em the stated laws from the off-road act. My own insurance company said the same but admitted they were not sure.

I was told that as a matter of law, everyne is entitled to insurance. Since the regular markets wont touch me, I'd have to start looking into the facility markets. yikes!!! Last time i was in facility i was paying 5 G's a year (damn speeding tickets)

I havnt followd up on facility markets yet.. someone else out there wanna pick up the ball here?


http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/A...sh/90o04_e.htm
Production of evidence of insurance

(3)**Every driver of an off-road vehicle who is not owner thereof shall, upon the request of a peace officer, surrender for inspection evidence that the vehicle is insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act.* R.S.O. 1990, c.*O.4, s.*15*(3).
Idem
(4)**Every owner of an off-road vehicle that is driven on land other than land that the owner occupies shall, upon request of a peace officer, surrender, for inspection, within seventy-two hours after the request is made, evidence that the vehicle was insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act at the time it was driven.* R.S.O. 1990, c.*O.4, s.*15*(4).

I made statements earlier that we have 72 hours in which to produce proof of insurance for off-road vehicles. This is NOT correct. the driver must produce ins, reg, and liscence upon request on the spot or get fined. The 72 hour rule comes in when the driver is not the owner and is not carrying proof of insurance. then the OPP can request from the owner proof of ins and the owner then has 72 hours to produce or face a ticket themselves.

Thats all the info I got for now. i for one will be only to happy to get a ticket and fight it in court. There is a lot of grey area here and the law is not 100%. Given the fact that the insuance companies have not caught up with our needs yet, i feel that club insurance should be suffecient despite what OPP says and theres only gonna be one way to find out.

If anyone has more info to offer, pls respond back. Keep the idle chit chat out as this is a serious matter that needs to be resolved asap.

D

[Depot]

copy/paste.. borrowed from another site.... http://www.oftr.org/legal.asp

Legal



The Legality Of It All!!!



In Ontario we have a set of laws called the Off-Road Vehicle Act. Copies of the Off-Road Vehicle Handbook are available for about $8 from the office where you buy your license plates. This act or law governs off-road motorcycles, three and four wheel ATV's, Odysseys and dune buggies. Powered wheelchairs are exempt but might not be if they are powered by a performance two-stroke engine and equipped with knobby tires.
The act is specific in the every vehicle must be registered. If the vehicle is used anywhere other then the registered owner's property, it must carry a license plate. The license plate is the green one, costs $35, attaches to the front of the vehicle and doesn't require a renewal sticker each year. At this time it isn't necessary to have any kind of operators permit or license to ride a bike or ATV off-road. To operate a motorcycle on the street, or a dirt road, an "M" license or learners permit is mandatory.
The next requirement is insurance, and is mandatory to operate your vehicle anywhere other than your property. The basic insurance requirements are PL & PD, and costs will vary significantly from company to company. Some insurance companies will not even provide it. Many agents want you to bring all your other insurance to them as well, Canada Life, working with the Motorcycle & Moped Industry Council, offer reasonable stand alone rates for off-road vehicles. State Farm is another company, which offers decent rates for these vehicles. I wonder how many people realize the penalty for operating a vehicle without insurance is presently $5000. THIS IS NOT A MISPRINT. The fine is equal to the price of a new bike. An exception to the license plate and insurance rule is, if the owner belongs to an organization and engages in sanctioned, closed course competition, (motocross, hare scrambles, trials etc.), However. This doesn't allow the owner to use the vehicle except at that sanctioned event. Some off-road or dual-sport motorcycles carry street plates and are then automatically governed by the Highway Traffic Act. When possible a bike should be licensed in this manner as it opens doors to a lot of country that a rider with a strictly off-road plate couldn't legally encounter.

[Depot]

I just got off the phone with the main OPP office.. what a p.i.t.a!!!! these gys dont know shit.

it boils down to this.... Nowhere in the act does it say I have to have a pink slip to prove insurance. I simply have to have proper insuranec and proof of it. Whether or not club insurance is is adequate is a grey area. What kind of proof is adequate is also a grey area.

for example... pink slip for ur car is adequate proof. So is a copy of ur entire policy!!!! the pink slip is more a matter of convinience.

Im also told the insurance has to be vehicle specific. According to the policy I have via OVO....

•Any person or organization engaged in operating, managing, sanctioning, or sponsoring the covered program or providing the premise for a covered program including officials of the covered program are included as additional insured
•Any participant, competition vehicle owner and competition vehicle sponsor are included as additional insured

its not vehicle specific but nevertheless includes me. - again, a grey area.

Every officer interprets the law differently and hence applies it in their own way. At the end of the day and this is according to opp guy as well as my own perceptions... the only way to solve this issue is to get a ticket from opp after I show em a copy of OVO's policy and how Im covered under it, then take it to court and splain it to the JP.

it is a risk and could go either way but I feel confident I'd win. Guess I'll just have to wait till i get popped and try that route.

D

[Terranaut]

So on road plates and insurance is the way to go if you can.

[Depot]

gotta be carefull with that approach for a few reasons...

1 - on-road ins does not cover u off-road. it may be enough for OPP but not if anythign happens. So in that case, Id get both, on-road and club insurance.

2 - on-road ins can and will be deemed null and void if u ever make a claim and the insurance company finds out u've modified ur truck. it is ur responsibility to notify ur ins co of any and all mods to ur truck that may affect the premiums. Specially things like, bigger motors, axel swaps, tires, lockers, nitrous. (Material Disclosure)

3 - if ur plated and insured as on-road, now u have to conform to all the on-road rules like fender flares and lights etc. The cop may choose to write u up on those if he feels like it. Even worse he may deem ur vehicle unsafe and impound it (worst case scenario).

4 - the cop may notify ur ins co of ur mods under the pretext of verifying the validity of ur insurance. I've had OPP call my ins company b4 to verify the policy.

i personally would not want to risk my home and auto policy by trying to squeak my zuk in there and not telling the ins co thats its so modified. It would really suck if my dually got stollen and they refused to pay cause I lied about my zuk.

Its a tough situation but it will get resolved soon i think.

D

[zc911]

if you get this resolved to the point where the OPP will leave you alone i would be SERIOUSLY suprised. no matter what you come up with, like you said, every office can see the law in a differnt light and write you a ticket based on that. So office A won;t give you a no insurance ticket, but next week office B will. Now you have to waste your time fighting a ticket that was technically BS.
Innocent until proven guilty my ass
The same nonsense has been going on in the car world for a long time, specifically imports. I know stupid ricers, blah blah blah, but it;s the same shit.
Harassed left right and center and no matter how legal you think you are, you find that one cop, and boom, suddenly you plates are being taken and your getting towed.

my hats off to you Depot, for actually doing research on the subject, it;s gotta be frustrating as hell when the people who write the tickets don;t know the answers to your questions. kinda makes you wonder how they are qualified to wirte the tickets doesn't it?

[Depot]

my plan is simple if it works... get a ticket, waste my time fighting it, win. get a certified copy of the judgement. Carry it in my zuk. Next cop that comes along, show him the judgement. If he still decides to issue a ticket, then I'll start lodging official complaints about harrasment and stir some shit back.

D

[Terranaut]

Depot you are going way "above and beyond" here ...Kudos to you .
Have you considered calling the OPP? Just a thought.

[TheSarg]

I just heard back from my Agent and as told by Depot, most insurance companies willnot insure a modified vehicle nor will they insure strickly for offroad, as told by thier underwriters, the suggestion she made was the same deal as Depot, Facility insurance and pay large for it.

So if no insurance company insures for offroad use, and i have mine legally plated and insured and on the road, decide to go offroading a cop stops me, asks for my pink slip of which i can provide, it's null & void anyways cause no insurance company will provide coverage offroad anyways, what a screwed up situation.

I personally would like to see this go farther and to some final resolve, and would more then willingly help out if we could create our own "task force" to maybe patch this crack we all seem to be falling through.

[Depot]

Terranaut - yep, I called a few of em.... different versions each time.

One ins company called me back today with slightly possitive news... they will insure my zuk for off-rad only. here are the catches...

1 - they want a certificate of mechanical fitness even though its strictly for off-road.

2 - they want an appraisal of the truck to figure out what catagory I'd fit in for rating purposes even though insurance is only for liability.

3 - this will be a facility coverage and estimtes are in the $6000 per year range.

4 - a copy of my drivers abstract

5 - they will not quote until I provide the requested info at my cost.

I've asked them to quote me a price for fun based on completion of the mechanical fitness, a clean drivers record and a $5000 appraisal ust to see what #'s they'd come back with b4 i spend any $$ jumping through their hoops. Im still waiting to hear back on that. the insurance company was co-operators.

I'll post back when i hear something

D

[Terranaut]

well seeing as I have all my insurance with them I can't wait to hear this quote.

[frwinks]

looks like street AND offroad ins. is the only safe way to do this

Depot, thanks for all the info. I think we all know how time consuming dealing with these bastids can be

[Terranaut]

Not possible to liscence as both is it?

[TheSarg]

No, your insurance policy does not cover unassumed roads or offroad trails. This would fall under Facility insurance, but not exactly. If the Police Officer is only looking for a pink slip, on road insurance would be a valid proof of insurance, and quite frankly its the one he's looking for, because offroad insurance simply doesnt really exsist for trucks.

[Fullload]

The officer may be happy with the pink slip, but offroad your not covered and on road your not covered if you get into an on road accident and they find out that you have modifications.
So the only reason to have the pink slip is to keep Mr. Opp happy.

[Shadow]

So the only reason to have the pink slip is to keep Mr. Opp happy.

exactly....like years ago you could pay the government 150$ for the right to drive but gave you no coverage. they removed that and the insurance company's took over at an inflated price.

shadow

[Depot]

well, Im outta ideas.. i got nowhere with co-operators. As it stands now, im gonna try the club insurance package route.. if I get popped and written up, I will take it to court and we'll all see what happens from there.

If and when that happens, i will post back, in the mean time, I have nothing more constructive to add here.

If u have anything usefull to add, do it now b4 I close this thread.


l8r


D

[Zukinator]

A little whie back I investigated getting insurance for my Sami through my broker. Unfortunately he is away this week, so I cannot confirm anthing until next week, but if I remember correctly, I could get my sami covered/insured using the offroad plate (use as an offroad vehicle) through one of his companies. The limitations I am not sure on. I know to get the insurance, I had to have teh vehicle saftied (which I am not sure even possible in my case), but after that I was told I was covered.. Obviously I would have to abide by the rules similar to an ATV, but in the offroad I was covered. (liability only). the cost (which I thought was high at that time) was about $500-600 per year. I will try to find out more next week, and if anything is useful, I will post..

as it stands no from reading through all this, the best route to make sure yo uare covered is to have it insured and plated for onroad, and have club coverage for the offroad. this will satistfy the police for insurance, and you are actually covered in both worlds. And of coarse don't lie to or with hold info from your insurance co. or you are not covered...

Tim

[Fullload]

The problem with bieng truthfull with your Ins. company Zukinator is that they will not give you insurance on road if they know that your modified for offroad use, otherwise we'd all do that.

[Terranaut]

When I liscensed my old YJ it was lifted .
I bought it that way. The agent asked me "have YOU modified this vehicle in any way ?" I replied "NO" and then she took a pic and sent me on my way .
I did not lie ...I had not done the mods to it .
After about 6 month of owning it I had a small accident in a parking lot .
A woman almost t-boned me and I drove across her hood with my rear Swamper.
$1400 in damages to her and nothing to me .She swore and somehow got a wittness to say that I just drove over her car.
My insurance company covered the damage to her car and never mentioned the lift or tires.
After I got an engineer from work to do all the math to prove she actually hit me and I also aquired the security video from the Tim Hortons where it happened and fed it to her and her wittness...The cops charged her and her witness for obstruction of justice or something and my company recovered the money from her. My rates didn't go up and even after all the pictures and discussions about how my huge J@#P squashed her little Sunfire I never heard once about any modifications .
My company is the Co-Operators. They have always been good to me .
I have traded my Zuk for a CJ5 and plan on building it up before I insure it .
It might be spring before I know but I will post my coverage (if any ) and rates if they allow my mods.